F.A.O.: Tony

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3WE
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F.A.O.: Tony

Postby 3WE » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:44 pm

Chris Foss:

Hey 3WE,
Yes its me! From the old days of ITS, Amy, Ancient Mariner and David H.

A quick CV to refresh the noodle in order to reference my comments:

Studied Aero Eng at Kingston Uni
300hrs PPL on 9 types
10 years flight dispatch at LHR
Senior dispatcher/instructor for SQ, IB, BI, 9V, OS, BD, QR, and a few others
15 years in transport management and accident investigation.
Currently designing and building high performance and advanced concept RC model aircraft while looking after my aging parents. My design/construction company is trickling along in the background.
Greatest AD.com achievement: helping to out and get rid of Jim Knight, aka creepy loser from Quebec living in his dads attic... not the millionaire CIA agent he claimed to be!!

I've been lurking, but happily there have been few significant accidents worth participating in until now.

I still keep in touch with Charles who is doing incredibly well with the airfield and FedEx

Hope you're well and still flying?
Unfortunately, no flying here- all talk. Lot's of complicated excuses + MOSTLY laziness & cheapness. Unfortunately, I've also developed troll tendencies, some of which were learned from our beloved AD.com "family". I told Flyboy, I'm not really a charter member in the inner circle- your Charle's comment is the first tangible update I've seen on him- although Melissa did a post-and-dash in the last year. You guys were having get togethers about the time that we started using dial-up in Flyover, America.

Dare I ask what type of aircraft Charles is operating now?

I work in the pesticide industry (always have) This gives me some exposure to aerial applicators (they ARE a bunch of Cowboys) + an approximate monthly trip in the wondrous (and sometimes painful) US aerospace system.

Nevertheless, big shiny loud airplanes (aeroplanies according to our recent culture) are awesome things, and when they crash (it's always sad), but it's very compelling to analyze what went wrong, if it could be prevented, and to determine if we should do anything about it.

Style & culture wise, we also usually italicize we, It's an acknowledgement that we are mostly outsiders who pontificate a lot of hot air, that does not truly impact what happens in the industry. Nevertheless, I think we enjoy the learnings and interactions.

Gabriel continues to be good hearted AND long winded- I sometimes challenge him (he's an aero engineer) just to be stinky, and other times to ask genuine questions, and to keep him honest.

Some accuse Not_Karl of being Half_Bottle...I belive there's a 20% chance that's true; however, he denies it AND there are some threads here with both of them posting within a short time period...and while there's a similar sense of humour, the style differs slightly.

By the way- given that you are an aeronautical engineer- there was recently a very in-depth discussion on why the curvature on the top of the wing greatly increases it's ability to produce lift in contrast with the underside of the wing. Much talk of Bernouli and Venturi, but I'm not sure that much understanding was gained. :-)
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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:22 am

Some accuse Not_Karl of being Half_Bottle...I belive there's a 20% chance that's true; however, he denies it AND there are some threads here with both of them posting within a short time period...and while there's a similar sense of humour, the style differs slightly.
I'm the other ha... No, I already used that alibi and it didn't work. I'm El_Media_Botella, the Latin American Halfie 8-) .
Style & culture wise, we also usually italicize we,
And that is related to both Evanie and there.
International Ban ALL Aeroplanies Association, founder and president.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:17 am

LOL So nothing has changed basically.

Is Verbal still at Boeing? I see his name occasionally when I lurk.

Interestingly, I almost ran over Brian in Southborough a few years ago. I know he says Tunbridge Wells, but it was definitely the cheaper side of TW. I was living in Tonbridge a couple of miles away. I should have run him over and said Hi. :D

Charles is back on the triples (the other fleet probably couldn't take the heat). He guards his privacy so I'll leave it at that. But I hope to visit him one day when the orangutan stops the games.

I never actually became a professional AeroEng as the industry evaporated before I had a chance to get going, and I didnt want to design plastic door brackets for plastic toilets on plastic planes, or build missiles, so I had 4 kids instead and have done a huge variety of jobs since, including head chef, operations manager, flight dispatch, and carpenter of my own small construction company making fancy sheds and summerhouses.

But I do design, build and fly some interesting scale, aerobatic and advanced concept model aircraft to keep my hand in. And I keep in touch with many fellow dispatchers who are now senior airline officials, but I must respect their positions and not blab too much about what they tell me.

While I remain obscenely poor, my 4 daughters are changing the world, so I'm a lottery winner without the pool sort of guy now and couldn't be happier. My eldest graduated Warwick with a 1st and then a masters (also 1st) in international security and is working in the EU parliament writing papers and speeches so the elected morons sound clever, but will be moving to better things after Brexit. The other 3 girls are not far behind.

Once I work out how to post pics, I'll put a few designs and models up for you lot to humiliate me with.

Right now, Im looking after aging and increasingly nutty parents which gives me time to post and build. I do mini blogs on FB groups so easy to find. The modelling group is similar to AD.com.... all egos and insults, but such is humanity these days.

As you can see, Gabriel is not the only long winded one now

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:25 am

So HB, how is Quebec these days?

I'm actually over in Toronto soon to see my kid brother push tin for NavCan, so I'll pop in to make sure the mannicles are still tight. Then I'm down to Chile to keep an eye on Dad for a few weeks. Mostly 787s and 777s.

Since my dad spends a few months in Chile every years, I've had to fly over every 6 months, usually BA 787s which are the most comfy airliner I've flown.

I too learnt my trolling skills from you and Verbie, and Charles, and Finfly, and Ancient Mariner (he was too cool to troll) and Mike H. But I often miss the lofty wisdom of Don Moore and Al weaver.

Anyeways, keep taking the pills and chewing at those chains, puberty will hopefully come one day.

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:57 am

So HB, how is Quebec these days?
Oh, you did call me Karl... :cry:
Anyeways, keep taking the pills and chewing at those chains, puberty will hopefully come one day.
I'm well stocked in Nair for that dreaded day.
Once I work out how to post pics, I'll put a few designs and models up for you lot to humiliate me with.
We don't need to see them to tell you how much they all suck... But we'd still like to ;) :D
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International Ban ALL Aeroplanies Association, founder and president.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:12 am

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Let's see if this works
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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:14 am

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:15 am

Thanks Karl_bottle.

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:17 am

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Current project

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:21 am

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby KPryor » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:48 pm

Amazing planes!
I went to prison for murder, but I stayed for the chili!

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby 3WE » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:20 pm

[Flap photograph two posts up]
That flap section appears to be curved on top and flat on the bottom.

Why?

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:34 pm

In this case, to function well extended and fit the scale profile when retracted.

Better than explaining Bernoulli/Euler equations or trying to dumb it down for human consumption, I'll try to find a video clip that the brain can digest and explain from there.

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:41 pm

https://youtu.be/03ZHtp3ezis

Not the best example I could find but watch the section in the middle where they use pulses of smoke in slow mo.

I'll let you absorb that and then try explain to me what you think you are seeing and how that creates lift.

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:01 pm

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
International Ban ALL Aeroplanies Association, founder and president.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby 3WE » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:05 pm

https://youtu.be/03ZHtp3ezis

Not the best example I could find but watch the section in the middle where they use pulses of smoke in slow mo.

I'll let you absorb that and then try explain to me what you think you are seeing and how that creates lift.
There's a small part of me that thinks I'm supposed to argue with and try to discredit that.

However, most of me thinks that's a really cool youtube and that I should say thanks.

I also suspect that accelerating air downwards has something to do with it too...
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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:55 am

"Accelerating air downwards"

Whenever explaining lift to people, I try to discern whether their brains are wired to understand a Bernoulli type explanation or a Newtonian one

You seem to have a Newtonian brain that is trying to grasp at Bernoulli.

To understand lift, we must train the brain to accept some basic facts about flow before the rest becomes clearer.

Looking at the video again and the flow lines, many people will see these lines over the wing getting closer together as air getting squeezed together and the air below where the lines spread out as air or flow getting pulled apart.

So think of this.

Cars on a highway: 3 lanes of traffic doing 20miles an hour and cars 10 feet apart. (Story of my life on the M25 around London!!)
if you are an observer on the side of the road you will see 3 cars pass you every second.
Now imagine those 3 lanes becoming a single lane with outer lanes closed (also my life on the M25) but the 'flow rate' (cars passing an observer = 3 cars per second) and car spacing is compelled to stay the same.

What would the cars have to do to pass that observer at a rate of 3 cars per second at the same spacing??

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby 3WE » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:46 pm

brains are wired...or...
Chris: Please do not feel compelled to teach me this- I am not_Evan and my brain actually enjoys the gray areas...

Lift pretty much REQUIRES that air be accelerated downward.

Now whether it's simply a flat, barn-door vane shoving air down, or a sophisticated airfoil shape with 23 interacting theorems Kutta this and vortices that and accelerations and suction on top (which does not really exist so it's REALLY "only" the air on the bottom pushing up...but we give the upper surface 60% credit...)…

...the plane passes, and there's a down wash and cool vortexes that can flip smaller aeroplanies.

I may not understand all of that 100% or even 50%, but I'm cool and enjoy a few examples and youtubez.

I do credit Evan, there, for finding "accredited" documents that Gabiee called BS on...that was also fun to watch. As to Gabiee's dissertations...a bit too much for entertainment and not enough for Evanie.
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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby 3WE » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:53 pm

What would the cars have to do to pass that observer at a rate of 3 cars per second at the same spacing??
The trouble with your analogy is that they basically don't speed up and maintain spacing...

Instead they merge into much smaller spacing...

If you wanna make your exercise work, it needs to be a well orchestrated merge with dudes laying hard into the accelerator and burning gas (significant energy) to speed up the cars....

And of course, lets go to reality...folks will consider the new spacing unsafe and then slow down and you get traffic jam.... :lol:

That being said, I'm visualizing air molecules and...I dunno, I get the acceleration, but where's it come from- action/reaction/no-free-lunch.
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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:25 pm

Now whether it's simply a flat, barn-door vane shoving air down, or a sophisticated airfoil shape with 23 interacting theorems Kutta this and vortices that and accelerations and suction on top (which does not really exist so it's REALLY "only" the air on the bottom pushing up...but we give the upper surface 60% credit...)…
Indeed.
A flattish surface moving through a fluid with an AOA is all you need to generate lift.
All the other features are just there in order to improve the lift to drag ratio. :?
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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:35 pm

I'm not in the habit of changing the views of others, but describing my view for you to compare to yours.

So let's now look at the air in 2 dimensions: vertical and horizontal.
You are describing vertical acceleration as a cause of lift when actually it is a consequence of it. Newtonian physics allows us to even calculate the amount of air being pulled down if we want to do certain flow calculations and measurements, so it's a proper thing as you correctly say.

But lift is the magical force that does the work to actually divert the air and pull it down, and its to do with pressure differential and fluid inertia.

At this point, most sane people shake their head and walk away from fancy words and formulae, so I use simple analogies for certain concepts, hoping people don't expand that analogy pointlessly.

So back to my point.

Horizontal acceleration is the dimension I look at in isolation of anything vertical.

And the absolute truth is that the air above suddenly goes faster than the air below which even slows down.

Energy is needed to accelerate a mass, so on the car analogy, the driver hits the gas to zip through the gap at 60mph in order to keep that same 10ft distance apart.
So to tie these together the compelling force that makes the drivers accelerate to maintain 10ft separation is the forces between air molecules that just want to be a certain distance apart, which is why we can squeeze and expand air.

Air accelerates towards low pressure and as you can see in the air below the wing surface, it is high pressure that is slowing the air down.

If you can now picture those areas if high pressure below the airfoil and low pressure above as graphs, there is a peak at certain point and the average of that graph is the centre of pressure while the aerodynamic forces that act on the wing may be centred elsewhere which is the centre of lift.

All measured by the same pressure graph, the pressure is related to the HORIZONTAL ACCELERATION which then causes the vertical acceleration which helps us describe lift on those terms.

You always understood it correct, but there iwas always something more going on to make the air deflect by that much. = PRESSURE!

Think of it as another way to measure and understand it , rather than the 'chickennand egg' argument

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:51 pm

Indeed.
A flattish surface moving through a fluid with an AOA is all you need to generate lift.
All the other features are just there in order to improve the lift to drag ratio. :?
Nicely put.

Flow lines on a drawing or even in a smoke line wind tunnel make it look like the air is being squeezed together when actually the molecules are being sucked apart as they accelerate under low pressure.

If you can't get past that fundamental fact you won't understand much beyond that.

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby AnMariner » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:48 pm

I'm on vacation in the Philippines at the moment, and too deep into a magnum bottle of red to post anything worthwhile. Oh, and that's going to last for another three weeks.
By the way, flying on a BaE-146 tomorrow. Woohoo.
Good to see some activity here.
Welcome back. Cheers!
Per

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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby elaw » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:51 pm

Make sure to quiz the pilots and make sure they know what to do in case of a trim runaway... just in case.
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Re: F.A.O.: Tony

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:32 pm

I sent the crew a note with ITS's number if they have a problem.
Must have worked since I've arrived safely in Chile.


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