Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Politics is continually a popular topic of conversation at AD.info, and to allow our members to discuss it, we've created this forum.

Moderators: FrankM, el

David Hilditch
Posts: 1201
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:33 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby David Hilditch » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:15 pm

I think it's all jealousy. When somebody is so focused on criticizing or bashing somebody else (in this case a country)....deep inside is jealousy.

When I worked for Nokia a LOT of Finnish people would apply to move to the California plant and get out of their god-forsaken refrigerator. Once in San Diego they would battle with all their might to stay. I am sure that is true for most countries.
I think that's over-stated. There may be some envy here and there around the world, there may be a sense that America represents (or used to represent) certain concepts and ideals which are admirable and to which one might aspire. I have not seen any jealousy, especially in Europe. What is there about America for people from Europe to be jealous about ?

The US is unlike any other country. Most other countries are just content to be, to exist. The US has to have a mission, it has to justify itself, it has to preach goodness and liberty, it has to serve up propaganda to itself to content itself about the rightness of its cause and its mission. Sometimes some of it is true. A lot of the time it isn't.

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:20 pm

What is there about America for people from Europe to be jealous about ?
I don't know, David, ask Katie and Gerry.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Ancient Mariner » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:47 pm

Give me a break, I know that Cadillac and Dodge/Chrysler are trying, but we are hardly talking big numbers or huge success are we?
I don't think those numbers are any smaller than they have been historically, Per, which is what you were implying. In fact, that BLS wagon you see on Cadillac of Europe's website is actually a Europe-only model, we don't even get them here. Also, if ebay of Germany is a good indication, there are plenty of Jeeps, Cadillacs, minivans (no, I don't know why) of American origin running around Europe.
Well. yes, no, maybe. The numbers may not be smaller, but the market share certainly is. In Scandinavia American cars were common in the 50'ies and 60'ies. Not true today, hardly any cars sold, only some SUVs and Trucks due to favourable tax regimes. Chrysler vans have been popular on/off here for some time. Relatively cheap, made in Austria and so I think are some Jeep models?
Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep have tried for years here (Norway), but they are for sure not a market leader. US cars are simply not designed for our market demands and tax regimes.
Per

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Ancient Mariner » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:51 pm

That is if the US doesn't go bankrupt, can get their act together financially and start resembling a first world country again. Oh, and start manufacturing real cars. I'm not calling the movers just yet.
Per
We will not go bankrupt...and actually you better pray we don't because if we do all you would too. Look at what is happening to the world economy simply because people in the U.S. borrowed more money for homes than they could pay.

I bet in Norway you guys watch a lot of american TV shows Check, american sports color=#FF0000]Nope[/color] , american movies Check, use american designed things ????. Our cars may not be good but we make one hell of an airplane (Boeing) So be it, I don't care about the make, only the operator..
Per

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:54 pm

US cars are simply not designed for our market demands and tax regimes.
So, it's not their lack of quality, is it?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Ancient Mariner » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:06 pm

US cars are simply not designed for our market demands and tax regimes.
So, it's not their lack of quality, is it?
There are several qualities. Real and perceived. Perceived as in European and unlike US cars. Real like Japanese and unlike US. Two unlikes and neither perceived nor real. See the problem?
Per

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:08 pm

There are several qualities. Real and perceived. Perceived as in European and unlike US cars. Real like Japanese and unlike US. Two unlikes and neither perceived nor real. See the problem?
Per
The only problem I see is that you're making less and less sense as you age.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Ancient Mariner » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:17 pm

There are several qualities. Real and perceived. Perceived as in European and unlike US cars. Real like Japanese and unlike US. Two unlikes and neither perceived nor real. See the problem?
Per
The only problem I see is that you're making less and less sense as you age.
Put your thinking cap on and you'll understand.
Per

User avatar
Verbal
Posts: 3578
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Planet Bacterion

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Verbal » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:43 pm

Ask yourself this question, Verbal: Why are US cars HARDLY not exported anymore?
What do you mean "anymore", Per? Historically, exports of automobiles built on U.S. soil by U.S. automakers has never been more than a sliver of total production, though you may have seen numerous American cars in Norway in the 50's.

GM and Ford have operations in Europe that produce cars specifically tailored to the European market. What sells well on one continent might not sell well on another. However, that is changing, as Ford especially is moving toward global platform sharing.
"I'm putting an end to this f*ckery." - Rayna Boyanov

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:47 am

What do you mean "anymore", Per? Historically, exports of automobiles built on U.S. soil by U.S. automakers has never been more than a sliver of total production...
There you go with your pesky facts again.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Ancient Mariner » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:34 am

Ask yourself this question, Verbal: Why are US cars HARDLY not exported anymore?
What do you mean "anymore", Per? Historically, exports of automobiles built on U.S. soil by U.S. automakers has never been more than a sliver of total production, though you may have seen numerous American cars in Norway in the 50's.

GM and Ford have operations in Europe that produce cars specifically tailored to the European market. What sells well on one continent might not sell well on another. However, that is changing, as Ford especially is moving toward global platform sharing.

I've based my statement on thin air since I can't find any figures to back them up. And you? ;)
GM and Ford was here in Europe at the same time they exported US and Canadian manufactured cars for the same market. Ford has tried "global platform sharing before, without success, as has GM. better luck this time, although I have a sneaking suspicion we are talking European cars soggied down for the US market.
Per

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:41 am

I've based my statement on thin air...
That much is obvious. And if you want some basic figures, here's a little info from the USITC.

http://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/arch ... tskli.html
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Ancient Mariner » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:09 pm

I've based my statement on thin air...
That much is obvious. And if you want some basic figures, here's a little info from the USITC.

http://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/arch ... tskli.html
Thanks. Interesting figures, although I was looking for something more historic.
I note, at a glance, that NAFTA is a major area for US exports, will study in detail later, need to earn some money for my boss first. :roll:
Per

User avatar
Schorsch
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:33 am
Location: Just next door to the German Poker Club
Contact:

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Schorsch » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:11 pm

A question, after getting a good portion of education on national debt and immigrants, what is the money supposed to be spent on?
A difference of 550 billion USD to 2008 deficit means that either
- the taxes income breaks away, or
- the government spends really hard on something.

Although Obama is looking like the probable winner, and although his plans sometimes look like additional spending, I don't think they make 550 billion difference.
The bailout plan does not cost direct money, at least no 550 billion USD.
Taxes will be less, but down 550 billion USD?

What is the current outlook for US economy in 2009? Between 1% plus and 2.5% minus I guess.
But we are not talking about the Great Depression, or do we?

Concerning cars: if a Volkswagen was as agile as its stock price, damn, you could wreck an Beamer in the world.
Publicly, we say one thing... Actually, we do another.

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:15 pm

Concerning cars: if a Volkswagen was as agile as its stock price, damn, you could wreck an Beamer in the world.
What?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Ancient Mariner » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:33 pm

Concerning cars: if a Volkswagen was as agile as its stock price, damn, you could wreck an Beamer in the world.
What?
This is kind of complicated, but I expect David to drop by and put it in layman terms. Personally I prefer beemer or bimmer since beamer is to close to reamer for comfort.
Per

David Hilditch
Posts: 1201
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:33 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby David Hilditch » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:43 pm

[quote="Schorsch"]...The bailout plan does not cost direct money.... [quote]

How come ?

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:44 pm

This is kind of complicated, but I expect David to drop by and put it in layman terms. Personally I prefer beemer or bimmer since beamer is to close to reamer for comfort.
That's all good, I'm just not sure I get the connection between agile VWs and the difficulty of wrecking BMWs.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Ancient Mariner » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:57 pm

This is kind of complicated, but I expect David to drop by and put it in layman terms. Personally I prefer beemer or bimmer since beamer is to close to reamer for comfort.
That's all good, I'm just not sure I get the connection between agile VWs and the difficulty of wrecking BMWs.
Me neither. Possibly a language thingie as in "If VW cars were as agile as the company's shares they could kick Bimmer's ass." Just guessing.
Per

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:16 pm

Me neither. Possibly a language thingie as in "If VW cars were as agile as the company's shares they could kick Bimmer's ass." Just guessing.
I thought that too, but it still seems at the very least ambiguous.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

Putt4Par
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:03 am
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Putt4Par » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:43 pm

I have not seen any jealousy, especially in Europe. What is there about America for people from Europe to be jealous about ?
So much anger and anti-U.S. talk points, in my opinion, to jealousy. Some others just accept they like the U.S. I speak from experience and not from reading studies. Most of the Europeans I know that live in the U.S. love it here and have told me they would never go back. Somehow I think you may fall into that category.
The US is unlike any other country. Most other countries are just content to be, to exist. The US has to have a mission, it has to justify itself, it has to preach goodness and liberty, it has to serve up propaganda to itself to content itself about the rightness of its cause and its mission. Sometimes some of it is true. A lot of the time it isn't.
I agree with that to a certain extent. However I think a lot of it has to do with how much scrutinity we are under. I don't know and couldn't care less about who is the president of Norway. However, everybody in the world knows what president Bush ate last night and how high his cholesterol is. I know the economy of the U.S. affects most countries but the scrutinity gives everybody the "right" to pass judgement. On the other hand somebody like Hugo Chavez can make the most outrageous claims and plans but most people don't pay attention.

By the way, I heard yesterday that Bill Gates is still trying to increase the number of "skilled worker" visas because he claims he can't find qualified workers (I.T.) in the U.S. But a report suggests that wages for I.T. people went down by 5% from Sept 07 to Sept 08. How about that. Me thinks this SOB wants cheaper labor from India at the expense of U.S. workers. He actually threatened to move his business to another country. Really? where? I doubt any other country has the I.T. talent in the quantities he is requiring. Well, except for India where they figured out the U.S. is hiring I.T. people and now everybody and their sister is studying Computer Science as a way to get out of their god forsaken country.

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:54 pm

Me thinks this SOB wants cheaper labor from India at the expense of U.S. workers. He actually threatened to move his business to another country. Really? where? I doubt any other country has the I.T. talent in the quantities he is requiring. Well, except for India where they figured out the U.S. is hiring I.T. people and now everybody and their sister is studying Computer Science as a way to get out of their god forsaken country.
It wouldn't bother me if he did that and was honest about it. But he's not.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby Ancient Mariner » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:19 pm

I have not seen any jealousy, especially in Europe. What is there about America for people from Europe to be jealous about ?
So much anger and anti-U.S. talk points, in my opinion, to jealousy. Some others just accept they like the U.S. I speak from experience and not from reading studies. Most of the Europeans I know that live in the U.S. love it here and have told me they would never go back. Somehow I think you may fall into that category. Spent too much time in the USoA to be halfway interested. Lots of other countries in the world I would live in, and have.
The US is unlike any other country. Most other countries are just content to be, to exist. The US has to have a mission, it has to justify itself, it has to preach goodness and liberty, it has to serve up propaganda to itself to content itself about the rightness of its cause and its mission. Sometimes some of it is true. A lot of the time it isn't.
I agree with that to a certain extent. However I think a lot of it has to do with how much scrutinity we are under. I don't know and couldn't care less about who is the president of Norway. We don't have one. However, everybody in the world knows what president Bush ate last night and how high his cholesterol is. I know the economy of the U.S. affects most countries but the scrutinity gives everybody the "right" to pass judgement. On the other hand somebody like Hugo Chavez can make the most outrageous claims and plans but most people don't pay attention.
You like to compare GWB to Hugo? OK, I don't.

By the way, I heard yesterday that Bill Gates is still trying to increase the number of "skilled worker" visas because he claims he can't find qualified workers (I.T.) in the U.S. But a report suggests that wages for I.T. people went down by 5% from Sept 07 to Sept 08. How about that. Me thinks this SOB wants cheaper labor from India at the expense of U.S. workers. He actually threatened to move his business to another country. Really? where? I doubt any other country has the I.T. talent in the quantities he is requiring. Well, except for India where they figured out the U.S. is hiring I.T. people and now everybody and their sister is studying Computer Science as a way to get out of their god forsaken country. Happens in every country with a free market economy. Ooops, forgot, USA!
Per

David Hilditch
Posts: 1201
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:33 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby David Hilditch » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:42 pm

I have not seen any jealousy, especially in Europe. What is there about America for people from Europe to be jealous about ?
So much anger and anti-U.S. talk points, in my opinion, to jealousy. Some others just accept they like the U.S. I speak from experience and not from reading studies. Most of the Europeans I know that live in the U.S. love it here and have told me they would never go back. Somehow I think you may fall into that category.
The US is unlike any other country. Most other countries are just content to be, to exist. The US has to have a mission, it has to justify itself, it has to preach goodness and liberty, it has to serve up propaganda to itself to content itself about the rightness of its cause and its mission. Sometimes some of it is true. A lot of the time it isn't.
I agree with that to a certain extent. However I think a lot of it has to do with how much scrutinity we are under. I don't know and couldn't care less about who is the president of Norway. However, everybody in the world knows what president Bush ate last night and how high his cholesterol is. I know the economy of the U.S. affects most countries but the scrutinity gives everybody the "right" to pass judgement. On the other hand somebody like Hugo Chavez can make the most outrageous claims and plans but most people don't pay attention.

By the way, I heard yesterday that Bill Gates is still trying to increase the number of "skilled worker" visas because he claims he can't find qualified workers (I.T.) in the U.S. But a report suggests that wages for I.T. people went down by 5% from Sept 07 to Sept 08. How about that. Me thinks this SOB wants cheaper labor from India at the expense of U.S. workers. He actually threatened to move his business to another country. Really? where? I doubt any other country has the I.T. talent in the quantities he is requiring. Well, except for India where they figured out the U.S. is hiring I.T. people and now everybody and their sister is studying Computer Science as a way to get out of their god forsaken country.
Ancient Mariner's responses are more pithy than mine, but :

1) Anger is not the flipside of jealousy. There is a tone of anger, yes, but that has little or nothing to do with jealousy. I say again, in Europe at least, I doubt there is any jealousy. I say again, what is there, precisely, to be jealous about ? The US has severely pissed off most of the world in recent years. As for myself, no, I would not leave the US, I have been here too long, have a family here etc. etc., I am too entrenched. While I deeply admire and love some aspects of the US, its story and its culture, I am not wedded to it in the quasi-religious way some Americans speak of 'American-ness' like some holy writ. I am deeply disappointed about some of the recent trends in this country. The US today is not the US I knew in my youth and to which I emigrated.

2) Microsoft etc. Open markets, as Per says. But the US is in truth a believer in open markets when it's a one-way street outbound. Of course, as a business, Microsoft is bound to want, indeed is obliged, to reduce its costs wherever it can. You know, it can't just import people. Visas are approved only when the company and the individual prove there are no Americans who can do the job. Is this requirement breached ? Of course, but not to the extent that Microsoft would fraudulently misrepresent the position for all its foreign employees. That's ridiculous. There is a shortage in the US of people with the skills and education levels the company needs. Deal with it. If it happens that employing the right people means that as a byproduct wages are lower, so be it. Also, you know, many Indians want to work in their own country, where you may have noticed growth is pretty frenetic in recent years. It's a world market too - Indians also want to work in Canada, Australia, the UK and many other places. The US is not the city on a hill you think it is. I think you're living in a cocoon.

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: Deficit for 2009 could top $1 trillion

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:49 pm

I say again, what is there, precisely, to be jealous about ?
And I say again, ask Katie and Gerry.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.


Return to “Political Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests