Some people might not like Merkel's fiscal policies, maybe they'll seek you out and murder your family.The just thing: as the great majority voted for them, the population can be blamed for it, and hence bomb victims can experience directly their voting results.
At least some feeling of direct democracy.
I must say for representing the morally untouchable defender of the women and children you easily fall back to insult.Some people might not like Merkel's fiscal policies, maybe they'll seek you out and murder your family.The just thing: as the great majority voted for them, the population can be blamed for it, and hence bomb victims can experience directly their voting results.
At least some feeling of direct democracy.
That would be alright then, wouldn't it?
So you think the reflection of your own views is an insult when applied to you?I must say for representing the morally untouchable defender of the women and children you easily fall back to insult.
You seem to consider your own arguments and way of arguing so poor that you cannot help to go without insult.
Well, there are few issues in world affairs which are more polarized, which is why perhaps the Economist this week calls it the new Hundred Years War (and that's 100 years and counting). I'm not giving Israel a free pass - I mentioned the use of phosphorus ordnance yesterday, I dislike the settlements policy, and they are certainly always very heavy-handed. The bias in favor of the Palestinians in Europe, though, seems every bit as heavy and blind as the bias in favor of Israel in the US. I accept you have a point about proportionality of response, but I still maintain that Hamas instigated this conflict in a rather cynical way, given that they knew civilians were in the front line. I don't think the moral values of the two sides are the same.I think you are being some what disingenuous so say the least. As was previously discussed in this thread,the Gaza strip is the most populated place in the world, not only that it has been under a state of constant siege for years, with the Israelis deliberately degrading the civilian infrastructure during this time. The population currently is forbidden to flee its confining walls by either Israel or Egypt. The 'gangsters' of Hamas ' as you put it, where elected with a large majority in the Gaza strip under impeccably held elections, one of their chief attractions being their lack of corruption and honesty when compared to Fatah. I would suggest to you that the gangsters are those in the Israeli government, the Prime minister of which ,has announced his resignation and is expected to face charges for corruption after the coming elections . The 'threat' that Israel is now using as an excuse for this attack the population of Gaza has killed eight people in the last five years.The Israelis were the ones to break the six month ceasefire in order to implement this attack, an attack,by the way that they were planning and training for for months, for political reasons to try and ex-purge the defeat they suffered in 2006.
I think maybe you've been exposed to US media for too long.
i seem to remember that Israeli terrorist killied lots of British troops, including hanging two NCO's with wire nooses in cold blood. I remember Israeli terrorists planted bombs in hotels, I recall Israeli terrorists murdering the UN representative Folke Bernadotte.But, you know, Israelis don't throw their political opponents off the top of tall buildings. Is that lack of corruption ? Hamas did also bludgeon their way into overall power in 2007 by effectively carrying out a coup against the PNA (which is why I
Well, as you know from closer to home, we always end up negotiating with our terrorist opponents, so yes I know how Begin became a statesman after his Irgun years. You probably know as well that Arabs/Palestinians also attacked and killed British troops in the 1930s and 1940s as well as the Zionists. Arabs and Jews also attacked each other. The British had a mandate to keep the peace, ha ha, but just gave up the ghost after WW2. It's a mess, yes, ergo the Hundred Years War. But we're not in the 1940s now.i seem to remember that Israeli terrorist killied lots of British troops, including hanging two NCO's with wire nooses in cold blood. I remember Israeli terrorists planted bombs in hotels, I recall Israeli terrorists murdering the UN representative Folke Bernadotte.
Guess what? those terrorists became the Israeli government. The murderer of Bernadotte the future Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Shamir
I think you know very well that Israeli government throws it opponents off tall buildings as welll, both figuratively and literally.
The Israeli government's policy , no matter which party is in power, is NEVER to create a relationship with any Palestinian politcal organisation that will create the reality of a Palistinian state, if the IDF were to wipe out every single member of the Hamas party (A party that recieved Israeli funding, by the way to counter Fatah and the PLO , back in the day )do you honestly believe they would sit down and negotiate with Fatah? History tells us the answer.
Did "we" ever?Do we still believe in the two-state solution ?
Simple, just some of a wide spectrum of options to be applied single or joint (not even have tried one of those fuels my suspicion of plain cynism on their - and the others, with different reasons - side):-snip-
Over the top retaliation would be carpet bombing Gaza City or tactical nukes to root out Hamas, just for example. I think they are being as judicious as they can be. They know how this plays around the world.
How should Isreal respond to rocket attacks from a neighboring territory? What would be a proportionate response?
... Israel (its later political leaders respectively) came 2k years later than the palestinians to the same area and *started* the whole story by getting their state through sheer terrorism (Irgun - = Etzel - vs. King David Hotel, Massacre of Deir Yassin, Haganah, Balfour Declaration, Ben Gurion, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, etc, google for youself and you get an idea of the amount of brainwash we have been going through the last 50 yrs, history is always the history of the winners...).Why is it so easily forgotten that... -snip-
Sounds familiar? With the important diffrence, I hope you will allow, that the Palestinians were doing so from a perspective of defending their country, whilist the Zionists were perpetrating their violence, much like the British, as Colonial settlers.We are certainly not in the 40's but Israel still uses violence and murder against its political opponents.You probably know as well that Arabs/Palestinians also attacked and killed British troops in the 1930s and 1940s as well as the Zionists. Arabs and Jews also attacked each other. .
That´s what cannot be discussed in PC World and yet is the Mother of all points: Israel´s right of existence. Where´s JJ when you need him?Why is it so easily forgotten that... -snip-
... Israel (its later political leaders respectively) came 2k years later than the palestinians to the same area and *started* the whole story by getting their state through sheer terrorism (Irgun - = Etzel - vs. King David Hotel, Massacre of Deir Yassin, Haganah, Balfour Declaration, Ben Gurion, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, etc, google for youself and you get an idea of the amount of brainwash we have been going through the last 50 yrs, history is always the history of the winners...).
Rattler
Israel (or any other nation) has exactly as much right to exist as it has the ability to defend its existence.That´s what cannot be discussed in PC World and yet is the Mother of all points: Israel´s right of existence.
OK, that´s one POV. Is this valid for Palestine as well?Israel (or any other nation) has exactly as much right to exist as it has the ability to defend its existence.That´s what cannot be discussed in PC World and yet is the Mother of all points: Israel´s right of existence.
The old "survival of the fittest"?Israel (or any other nation) has exactly as much right to exist as it has the ability to defend its existence.That´s what cannot be discussed in PC World and yet is the Mother of all points: Israel´s right of existence.
It absolutely is, which is why any kind of a "two-state solution" is hogwash. You can't have a "two-state" solution when the only thing either one of those states is interested in is complete annihilation of the other. The only difference is that one of them actually admits it.OK, that´s one POV. Is this valid for Palestine as well?
Of course. There is truly nothing new under the Sun.The old "survival of the fittest"?
I would tend to agree with this statement, for sure. Pre-Zionist Zionism (ie. promotion of Jewish emigration before Zionism really got going) was very much part of British imperial strategy as far back as the first half of the 19th century. Still, much later on, much Jewish emigration (mandate or no mandate) resulted from the effects of various European policies (ie. pogroms, antisemitism, ghettos, gas chambers.........).With the important diffrence, I hope you will allow, that the Palestinians were doing so from a perspective of defending their country, whilist the Zionists were perpetrating their violence, much like the British, as Colonial settlers.
My take:(Author: von Staudt, http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/index. ... 27#msg1527)
Here is a little "mind experiment" for ya'll: ???
Scenario #1: Suddenly the Palastinians throw their arms into the sea, and declare a unilateral end to the fighting, and agree to recognize Israel's right to exist. What happens next?
Scenaio #2: Suddenly the Israelis throw their arms into the sea, open the borders, declare a unilateral end to the fighting and agree to give the Palastinians Gaza and the West Bank for their own state. What happens next?
Post what you think will happen in each case.
http://www.reuters.com/article/middleea ... USLJ974036Israel's military was rocked on Thursday by Gaza war veterans' accounts of soldiers' killings of civilians and allegations that deep contempt for Palestinians pervaded its ranks.
The soldiers, alumni of a military academy, gathered last month to discuss their experiences in the 22-day Israeli offensive that ended in January, a campaign that Palestinians and human rights groups have said warranted war crimes probes.
Disclosing details of the session, the institution's director said the soldiers pointed to an atmosphere within the military of "unbridled contempt for, and forcefulness against, the Palestinians"....
The squad leader said most of the men under his command felt "the lives of Palestinians ... is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers, so as far as they are concerned, they can justify it that way".
Zamir said he conveyed the veterans' accounts to the Israeli military. Israeli leaders have said Hamas bears ultimate responsibility for civilian deaths because its fighters operated in crowded Palestinian areas.
Another squad leader who attended the academy said at the gathering that a company commander had ordered an elderly Palestinian woman shot as she walked on a road about 100 metres (yards) from a house that troops had taken over.
Describing vandalism carried out by soldiers, the squad leader said: "To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can -- I think this is the main thing, to understand how much the IDF (Israel Defence Forces) has fallen in the realm of ethics."
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests
