The Massacre Continues

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The Massacre Continues

Postby rattler » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:19 am

Israel proceeded with more bombardments on Gaza this morning, this time destroying the university and the Ministery of Interior.Ground attack is imminent.

The first attacks brought forward by 50+ a/c, that resulted in 300 dead and more than 1.000 injured (the mayority as always civilians and lots of children between them) from my POV can only be called an authentic massacre and cannot be justified under whatever concept.

If you look for terrorism, here you have it:
gazza1.jpg
gazza1.jpg (18.35 KiB) Viewed 9135 times
gaza2.jpg
gaza2.jpg (22.9 KiB) Viewed 9126 times
gaza3.jpg
gaza3.jpg (74.11 KiB) Viewed 9125 times
gaza5.jpg
gaza5.jpg (17.2 KiB) Viewed 9130 times
gaza6.jpg
gaza6.jpg (17.73 KiB) Viewed 9125 times
gaza7.jpg
gaza7.jpg (14.46 KiB) Viewed 9129 times
gaza8.jpg
gaza8.jpg (16.11 KiB) Viewed 9118 times
Especially the last two pictures show how you produce new fighters against Israel: Do that to my daughter and you would have one more for sure, going straight for Mr. Barak.

Now, as I don´t believe the Israeli government is stupid and not aware of that, why are they doing it? Same goes for Hamas: Why do they keep launching Kassams at Israel when they know the response? The answer is simple: "Qui bono".

All those guys are plain cynical calculators: Israek needs its Palestinian terrorists, the Palestinians need their Israel state terrorism, Egypt needs both, simply to make sure this does not finish ever and they can keep making serious money from the situation.

All those governments and leader structures over there are super corrupt (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6276071.stm, http://www.phrmg.org/Corruption%20in%20 ... hority.htm, http://www.business-anti-corruption.com ... pageid=143) and their citizens lives and wellbeing don´t count zilch for them as long as they can make their cuts on arms deals, take their part of International Help funds, control goods flow to Gaza and keep up a well working black market with hilarious prizes for everything, etc. etc.

FWIW,
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby rattler » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:33 am

I have been alerted to that "Qui bono" should read "cui bono" (to who´s beneifit), I stand corrected, was using it phonetically. "Cui bono" is the correct spelling: http://www.answers.com/topic/cui-bono

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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby David Hilditch » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:08 pm

It seems to me Israel has every right to do what it is doing. The strategic question is whether the action serves any purpose. It probably doesn't.

It no longer makes sense to talk about "Palestinians" as one bloc. The Hamas Gaza Strip entity is almost as hostile to the West Bank Fatah interest as it is to Israel. I don't see how there can be any political settlement as long as Hamas is in power in Gaza, even though Hamas was elected "democratically" in an election promoted by the US and others.

Israel may also psychologically want to avenge their defeat by Hizbullah in 2006. The world thought Israel was too heavy-handed. Israelis criticized their own people for not being heavy-handed enough.

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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby supersean » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:02 pm

It seems to me Israel has every right to do what it is doing. The strategic question is whether the action serves any purpose. It probably doesn't.
I could not agree more. Israel had to do something about the constant rocket attacks but I think they went about it the wrong way. What I would have done is a massive special forces back campaign to destroy the military c&c of Hamas... not very difficult to do... take out cell phones take out the key players and take out key infrastructure..3-6 commando teams and 10 strike aircraft would have been much more accurate, much more effective and much more PC which does count for something.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Sickbag » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:52 pm

The Israeli government are doing this because they can, they want to try and diminish Hamas and the West Bank before the Israeli General Election to try and make up for the disaster that the current government got into in the Lebanon war of '06 and because they are uncertain of what a new Obama president may do; after all the US holds the purse strings to Israel.
Like Lebanon the attacks are aimed mostly at destroying the civilian infrastructure of the strip, to make life even harder for the refugees inside in the hope they will turn their backs on Hamas. Like Lebanon it's doomed to fail.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby David Hilditch » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:04 pm

......and because they are uncertain of what a new Obama president may do; after all the US holds the purse strings to Israel.
Like Lebanon the attacks are aimed mostly at destroying the civilian infrastructure of the strip, to make life even harder for the refugees inside in the hope they will turn their backs on Hamas. Like Lebanon it's doomed to fail.
Do we honestly think Obama will be any different in substance from previous administrations ? Obama, unwittingly perhaps, gave Israel the green light some time ago when he said something to the effect that if someone was firing rockets at my town, I would want to retaliate. I wonder if he now regrets saying that.

It will also fail because the Hamas operatives still alive have disappeared, or are blending in with the populace in the alleys and yards launching rockets or have exiled themselves to Syria or Egypt. So, however much Israel may be in the right, all that the popular media in the Middle East and Europe can show is the usual stuff - bloody civilian victims, explosions, refugees, smashed communities and streets.

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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Sickbag » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:35 pm


Do we honestly think Obama will be any different in substance from previous administrations ? Obama, unwittingly perhaps, gave Israel the green light some time ago when he said something to the effect that if someone was firing rockets at my town, I would want to retaliate. I wonder if he now regrets saying that.
No, there will be no difference what so ever but it is a risk the Israeli don't have to take if they act now as the Bush regime will give then a blank cheque to a known point and they know how the US will reign them in.

It will also fail because the Hamas operatives still alive have disappeared, or are blending in with the populace in the alleys and yards launching rockets or have exiled themselves to Syria or Egypt. So, however much Israel may be in the right, all that the popular media in the Middle East and Europe can show is the usual stuff - bloody civilian victims, explosions, refugees, smashed communities and streets.
They will show that, because that's all the present Israeli goverment have to offer.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby supersean » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:42 pm

......and because they are uncertain of what a new Obama president may do; after all the US holds the purse strings to Israel.
Like Lebanon the attacks are aimed mostly at destroying the civilian infrastructure of the strip, to make life even harder for the refugees inside in the hope they will turn their backs on Hamas. Like Lebanon it's doomed to fail.
Do we honestly think Obama will be any different in substance from previous administrations ? Obama, unwittingly perhaps, gave Israel the green light some time ago when he said something to the effect that if someone was firing rockets at my town, I would want to retaliate. I wonder if he now regrets saying that.

It will also fail because the Hamas operatives still alive have disappeared, or are blending in with the populace in the alleys and yards launching rockets or have exiled themselves to Syria or Egypt. So, however much Israel may be in the right, all that the popular media in the Middle East and Europe can show is the usual stuff - bloody civilian victims, explosions, refugees, smashed communities and streets.
I dont think that he regrets saying it and he should not... if rockets were falling in my town, I would want my government to do something. The issue I (and most of the rest of the world) have with Israel's latest response is the and the blatant punishment of all in Gaza. Winning hearts and minds of the gernal population in Gaza is something that Israel should be focusing on not carpet bombing and generating more hatred than ever before.

Israel is in the right for taking action but they are clearly in the wrong for the actions that they have decided to take. Some of the images viewable on the internets are just sick as to what is occurring.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Verbal » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:50 pm

Israel has never been concerned about appearances. Why should they start now?
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby rattler » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:16 am

Do we honestly think Obama will be any different in substance from previous administrations ? -snip-
Not with Hillary on the team.

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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby rattler » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:22 am

...and the Google Ad bot really seems to understand more than we imagine: http://www.europeancourier.org/95.htm was his latest offered link when I posted...

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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby David Hilditch » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:19 am

Do we honestly think Obama will be any different in substance from previous administrations ? -snip-
Not with Hillary on the team.

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I think that's just a cheap shot. It has nothing to do with her or indeed who is Secretary of State. it has far more to do with deeper and longer-term economic and political factors connected with the history of American Jewry and its role in the political process.

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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Sickbag » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:23 pm

I think that's just a cheap shot. It has nothing to do with her or indeed who is Secretary of State. it has far more to do with deeper and longer-term economic and political factors connected with the history of American Jewry and its role in the political process.

Indeed, and how succinctly you expose the myth of 'change'.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby flyboy2548m » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:19 am

It has far more to do with deeper and longer-term economic and political factors connected with the history of American Jewry and its role in the political process.
I've always wondered why so many American (and other) Jews support a country in which they don't live, nor have any intention of living in. Surely not just to have one giant summer camp for their kids?
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby David Hilditch » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:33 pm

I've always wondered why so many American (and other) Jews support a country in which they don't live, nor have any intention of living in. Surely not just to have one giant summer camp for their kids?
I have heard about and read about American Jews who have moved to Israel. Not many of course. Still, the kith and kin argument is powerful among Jews. It seems obvious and inevitable that most Jews would support Israel in broad terms. Of course, in America the support seems more state-to-state and institutional, but it is more unconditional compared with Europe. The guilt complex and the sense of victimhood over the genocide/holocaust is much stronger in America and in Israel itself. As a result, Jewish American leaders, on the whole, tend to justify all their government's wars and support the most right-wing foreign policies. They are against everybody else, eg. Russia, France, Arab countries, Iran, China, immigrants.

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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Ancient Mariner » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:06 pm

It has far more to do with deeper and longer-term economic and political factors connected with the history of American Jewry and its role in the political process.
I've always wondered why so many American (and other) Jews support a country in which they don't live, nor have any intention of living in. Surely not just to have one giant summer camp for their kids?

Jesus and all that crap.
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Ground War Has Started

Postby rattler » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:01 pm

Latest News: The ground war has started...

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kpszOA32L2g

An interesting article on the LL´s from the Lebanon war here:

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/12/s ... es-on.html

Just FYI,

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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Sickbag » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:05 pm

Is the IDF attempting to balance out the Arab demographic advantage by its targeting of civilians?
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Verbal » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:22 pm

Jesus and all that crap.
How very respectful of you.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Schorsch » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:43 am

I've always wondered why so many American (and other) Jews support a country in which they don't live, nor have any intention of living in. Surely not just to have one giant summer camp for their kids?
I have heard about and read about American Jews who have moved to Israel. Not many of course. Still, the kith and kin argument is powerful among Jews. It seems obvious and inevitable that most Jews would support Israel in broad terms. Of course, in America the support seems more state-to-state and institutional, but it is more unconditional compared with Europe. The guilt complex and the sense of victimhood over the genocide/holocaust is much stronger in America and in Israel itself. As a result, Jewish American leaders, on the whole, tend to justify all their government's wars and support the most right-wing foreign policies. They are against everybody else, eg. Russia, France, Arab countries, Iran, China, immigrants.
While it seems that American support of Israel somehow is more than could rationally be justified. And remember (I actually don't, but I read) that American support for Israel before the early 1970ies was minimal. It was after the 1967 war that Israel and USA became closer allies. Maybe because the Soviet support for the funny Arabs. I guess it wasn't Richard Nixon's general appreciation of the Jews itself:

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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Schorsch » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:54 am

Is the IDF attempting to balance out the Arab demographic advantage by its targeting of civilians?
I always found it strange that you see only camera shots of hospitals in Gaza.
Yesterday a news report, people were brought to a hospital after an Israeli granade (what else, Kassams never fail and fall into friendly territory) hit a market place (who visits a market place amids an aerial bombing campaign?) and killed only women and children (of course ... the guys were hiding?).

Damn, if there are a few basic rules for "how to I not become victim of unfriendly air attacks", the people in Gaza seem either on purpose or on external pressure violate them all.

I don't want to say the people killed are to blame for it, that would be cynic, but I guess a five year old could see that the Hamas want only two things to come out of the Gaza strip: Kassam rockets and pictures of wounded & dead children (womens marginally acceptable, too, but dead guys don't count), and actually I think the Israelis are currently more concerned about civil losses in Gaza than the Hamas is.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby Sickbag » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:54 am

Is the IDF attempting to balance out the Arab demographic advantage by its targeting of civilians?
I always found it strange that you see only camera shots of hospitals in Gaza.
Yesterday a news report, people were brought to a hospital after an Israeli granade (what else, Kassams never fail and fall into friendly territory) hit a market place (who visits a market place amids an aerial bombing campaign?) and killed only women and children (of course ... the guys were hiding?).

Damn, if there are a few basic rules for "how to I not become victim of unfriendly air attacks", the people in Gaza seem either on purpose or on external pressure violate them all.

I don't want to say the people killed are to blame for it, that would be cynic, but I guess a five year old could see that the Hamas want only two things to come out of the Gaza strip: Kassam rockets and pictures of wounded & dead children (womens marginally acceptable, too, but dead guys don't count), and actually I think the Israelis are currently more concerned about civil losses in Gaza than the Hamas is.
As you know,and I'm sure you must,that Israel is using it Navy, Air force and Ground Artillery to fire shells, missiles, including phosphorus and D.U. ordinance, and drops 1 tonne bombs into the most densely populated land in the world, a population, by the way,of 1.5 million crammed into an area of 360 km2 that can not run away as its borders are sealed making it effectively a open prision, that the IDF has ignored a high court ruling of its own country to allow foreign reporters into the Gaza strip then it surprises me that you seem to be suggesting that the Palestinian people gladly kill themselves and their families for publicity. Maybe you don't consider them as people equal to you and your family, with the same hopes and desire for peace and justice as everyone else? I'm sure most Israelis don't.That is why they feel able to visit upon the Gaza inhabitants the same punishment your forefathers felt applicable to use on the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:16 pm

I think the Israelis are currently more concerned about civil losses in Gaza than the Hamas is.
That's probably true, but it's also probably no great accomplishment. It's kind of like saying that a mouse would rather be eaten by a housecat than by a puma.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:19 pm

Yesterday a news report, people were brought to a hospital after an Israeli granade (what else, Kassams never fail and fall into friendly territory) hit a market place (who visits a market place amids an aerial bombing campaign?) and killed only women and children (of course ... the guys were hiding?).

Damn, if there are a few basic rules for "how to I not become victim of unfriendly air attacks", the people in Gaza seem either on purpose or on external pressure violate them all.
It reminds me of when at the old ad.com they posted a photo of a supposed river of blood flowing down some ragheadtown street. The "river" was way too viscous to be blood, and was also covered in branches and debris. When I pointed that out, Amy the Dumbass banned me for the fourth time (or was it the fifth?).

Oh well, nice to see Pallywood is alive and prosperous.
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Re: The Massacre Continues

Postby rattler » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:21 pm

Is the IDF attempting to balance out the Arab demographic advantage by its targeting of civilians?
I always found it strange that you see only camera shots of hospitals in Gaza. Yesterday a news report, people were brought to a hospital after an Israeli grenade hit a market place and killed only women and children (of course ... the guys were hiding?).

Damn, if there are a few basic rules for "how to I not become victim of unfriendly air attacks", the people in Gaza seem either on purpose or on external pressure violate them all.

I don't want to say the people killed are to blame for it, that would be cynic, but I guess a five year old could see that the Hamas want only two things to come out of the Gaza strip: Kassam rockets and pictures of wounded & dead children (womens marginally acceptable, too, but dead guys don't count), and actually I think the Israelis are currently more concerned about civil losses in Gaza than the Hamas is.
Ok, lets drudle that up a bit:

Actually, the civilians in Gaza have nowhere to go, not only in the town but in th strip as a whole (graphic: http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/graf ... _gaza.html).

I am not sure you are aware of the infrastructural situation in Gaza strip (I have been there): The strip is very small, just 4-6x30km, a total of 340+ sqkm, thats just slightly more than Amsterdam (300 sqkm), populated with 1.5 million inhabitants + 1 million refugees (thats 3.5x the population density of A´dam).

It simply is impossible for the government infrasturcture, police stations, the university, etc - those were the targets up to now - not to be not surrounded by civilians. The people targeting Israel with rockets enter through tunnels and dont live within the strip (and hence dont hide within civil populaation), so bombarding the government installations wont do anything but hurt just those.

Check details and political status for yourself: https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... tml#People

I have already stated that both sides follow cynical, straightforward caluclated plans IMHO (money, money and money, and elections), and I have no doubt that Hamas was starting the thingy by breaking (overtly, it had been violated by both sides several times before) the cease fire. To allow that (from both sides) is the real scandal.

Apart from this one there are several more:

- The comment of the Israeli Foreign Minister, Ms. Tzipi Livni, who is a rising star in Israel's centrist Kadima party, heading the polls and aiming to be the next prime minister in February on the humanitarian situation in Gaza: "The humanitarian situation in Gaza is as it should be"... (water, gas, petrol, electricity turned off, no aid allowed in, no civilians out, hospitals have closed dwon and medics by now have turned off their mobiles and resigned themselves to prayer: http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2009/01/0 ... 33093.html, again in Spanish, pass by http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=es#)

- Seperating women and children (up to 11 yrs) and old men (over 45 ?) from the masculine population yesterday in the refugee camp, stripping naked the masculine refugees (and I am sure there are some activists under them, but we are talking hundreds here) between 12 and 45, tying their hands behind their backs and closing them in inside barbed wire fenced compounds at temperatures around zero degrees centigrade for all the night: http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2009/01/0 ... 32186.html (in Spanish I am afraid, pass it by the translation engine at http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=es#)

- bombardin UN installations like the UN reigned school: http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2009/01/0 ... 32106.html, use same translator (and dont tell me they dont know where they were, or their precision bombs http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/12/i ... ts-dr.html went astray)

etc..., etc..., etc...

Now, Israel is executing it´s right of self defense?

Well, read article 51 of the UN charter and the legal comments on it again: While the right of self defense is granted *until SC takes measures*, intl law limits those (non SC ordered defense actions) to "porportionality" which I cannot see given the threat (4 dead - however sad those are - by terroist rockets in one year? ETA killed 12 in 2008, and still Spain isn´t bombarding Bilbao/San Sebastian or other Basque cities and the quarters where the Kale Borroka live; 500 dead and 2000 wounded dont sound proportional to me).

I know others see it differently, but all the articles I see taking this stance are somehow related to Israel media or US American Israel supporters: http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/01/israels ... ndable.php, http://theneweditor.com/index.php?/arch ... diocy.html So, its nt only Hamas reigning the media...

But, the majority of media that take a (from my POV) unbiased stance always fall always into the same categories to evaluate the rights and wrongs (like in the Iraq war, where I had stated almost the same before on the old forum): http://www.economist.com/printedition/d ... D=12853965
In general, a war must pass three tests to be justified. A country must first have exhausted all other means of defending itself. The attack should be proportionate to the objective. And it must stand a reasonable chance of achieving its goal. On all three of these tests Israel is on shakier ground than it cares to admit.

It is true that Israel has put up with the rockets from Gaza for a long time. But it may have been able to stop the rockets another way. For it is not quite true that Israel’s only demand in respect of Gaza has been for quiet along the border. Israel has also been trying to undermine Hamas by clamping an economic blockade on Gaza, while boosting the economy of the West Bank, where the Palestinians’ more pliant secular movement, Fatah, holds sway. Even during the now-lapsed truce, Israel prevented all but a trickle of humanitarian aid from entering the strip. So although Israel was provoked, Hamas can claim that it was provoked too. If Israel had ended the blockade, Hamas may have renewed the truce. Indeed, on one reading of its motives, Hamas resumed fire to force Israel into a new truce on terms that would include opening the border.

On proportionality, the numbers speak for themselves—up to a point. After the first three days, some 350 Palestinians had been killed and only four Israelis. Neither common sense nor the laws of war require Israel to deviate from the usual rule, which is to kill as many enemies as you can and avoid casualties on your own side. Hamas was foolish to pick this uneven fight. But of the Palestinian dead, several score were civilians, and many others were policemen rather than combatants. Although both Western armies and their foes have killed far more civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq, Israel’s interest should be to minimise the killing. The Palestinians it is bombing today will be its neighbours for ever.

This last point speaks to the test of effectiveness. Israel said at first that, much as it would like to topple Hamas, its present operation has the more limited aim of “changing reality” so that Hamas stops firing across the border. But as Israel learnt in Lebanon in 2006, this is far from easy. As with Hizbullah, Hamas’s “resistance” to Israel has made it popular and delivered it to power. It is most unlikely to bend the knee. Like Hizbullah, it will probably prefer to keep on firing no matter how hard it is hit, daring Israel to send its ground forces into a messy street fight in Gaza’s congested cities and refugee camps.
Oh, and three of the four killed Israeli soldiers fell to freindly fire: http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2009/01/0 ... 05757.html (same translator will help)

My 2c,

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