Not drowing but waving..

[Sickbag]

CIA interrogators waterboarded Al-Qaeda's September 11 attack mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and another top suspect, Abu Zubaydah, at least a combined 266 times, a Justice Department memo said.

The use of the near-drowning technique on the two suspected Al-Qaeda terror kingpins was contained in the small print of a Bush-era memo released by US President Barack Obama last week and highlighted by the New York Times Monday.

The memo, dated May 30, 2005, revealed that "waterboarding" was used 183 times on Mohammed during March 2003 and at least 83 times on Zubaydah in August 2002.

Its contents became clear hours before Obama, who last week granted immunity to CIA officers involved in the harsh interrogation techniques, was due to visit the agency headquarters outside Washington

Well, at least the CIA officers can emerge from this torture with their hands clean.

[rattler]

Well, at least the CIA officers can emerge from this torture with their hands clean.

I am all for that, but then we need to go for the ones that ordered it (not 2 laws for different ppl, and the argument "Lets look forward, this was the past!" will make anybody smile at a your next due process for speeding...): Rumsfeld is in the visors as is Rice, as well as some other top brass, as it seems the orders to employ the 14 mentioned techniques all came from Pentagon or Exterior.

Rattler

[Putt4Par]

Waterboarding can hardly be considered torture. Please. I am not saying it should be used by the local police to find out if a person was involved in a liquor store robbery, but when dealing with terrorists and trying to obtain information that will save lives, I'm all up for it. It is not inhumane and it doesn't cause physical injury. If Rice and Bush and Chenney authorized it and it helped save lives, GOOD!

I am apalled by all the news this has created....especially when you consider that the person that was waterboarded planned the 9/11 attacks and was in the process of planning another attack where several jetlines would be blown up in mid air. And the freaking media and some delusional people are all concerned about this guy's civil rights and how much "suffering" he went through? Here is a news flash: if he had cooperated with information he would have avoided the water board.

[rattler]

-snip- I am apalled by all the news this has created....especially when you consider that the person that was waterboarded planned the 9/11 attacks and was in the process of planning another attack where several jetlines would be blown up in mid air. And the freaking media and some delusional people are all concerned about this guy's civil rights and how much "suffering" he went through? Here is a news flash: if he had cooperated with information he would have avoided the water board.

"Tactics" describes what to do when something has to be done.
"Strategy" describes what to do when nothing has to be done.

Rattler

[David Hilditch]

Waterboarding can hardly be considered torture.

It's not exactly a fun day out though. The real question, however, is what they thought they were trying to achieve by waterboarding him 180 times in a month, which is 6 times a day. You'd think after 20 or 40 times they'd realize he wouldn't crack, and the victim would also realize he wasn't going to die. What did they think they were doing ? The other guy, by the way, ie. Zubaydah, offered his information before he was even tortured.

[Sickbag]

Waterboarding can hardly be considered torture. Please. I am not saying it should be used by the local police to find out if a person was involved in a liquor store robbery, but when dealing with terrorists and trying to obtain information that will save lives, I'm all up for it. It is not inhumane and it doesn't cause physical injury. If Rice and Bush and Chenney authorized it and it helped save lives, GOOD!

I wonder how many waterboarding cycles it would take to change your mind?

[Rabbi O'Genius]

As any competent conspiracy theorist will have noted, "Zubaydah" is simply an anagram of "Dubya haz...." and is clearly the first part of a coded message. Please let me know if anyone manages to find and decipher the rest of the text.

[Ancient Mariner]

Waterboarding can hardly be considered torture. Please. I am not saying it should be used by the local police to find out if a person was involved in a liquor store robbery, but when dealing with terrorists and trying to obtain information that will save lives, I'm all up for it. It is not inhumane and it doesn't cause physical injury. If Rice and Bush and Chenney authorized it and it helped save lives, GOOD!

I am apalled by all the news this has created....especially when you consider that the person that was waterboarded planned the 9/11 attacks and was in the process of planning another attack where several jetlines would be blown up in mid air. And the freaking media and some delusional people are all concerned about this guy's civil rights and how much "suffering" he went through? Here is a news flash: if he had cooperated with information he would have avoided the water board.

Ah, yes. The end justifies the means thinking. Had some examples over here '40 to '45. Didn't really catch on as it turned out that some were willing to confess to anything under torture. So now we have at least two "civilised" and "democratic" countries that allow this. USA and Israel. Congratulations.
Per

[Ancient Mariner]

And by the way,
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first10 ... se-photos/

Defense Department to Release Photos Showing Detainee Treatment in Iraq, Afghanistan
The Department of Defense announced late Thursday that at least 44 photos depicting treatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan will be released.

Per

[Putt4Par]

Waterboarding can hardly be considered torture. Please. I am not saying it should be used by the local police to find out if a person was involved in a liquor store robbery, but when dealing with terrorists and trying to obtain information that will save lives, I'm all up for it. It is not inhumane and it doesn't cause physical injury. If Rice and Bush and Chenney authorized it and it helped save lives, GOOD!

I wonder how many waterboarding cycles it would take to change your mind?

Not sure. That is why I don't go around planning terrorist attacks against other countries. See, when you live a normal life you don't have to worry about getting "waterboarded".

Besides, waterboarding looks much more benign compared to what these terrorists do to make people crack or what they do to innocent people - remember that guy Berg who got decapitated in front of a camera for your viewing pleasure? His only crime was to be an American trying to help people in Iraq.

[Putt4Par]

Waterboarding can hardly be considered torture. Please. I am not saying it should be used by the local police to find out if a person was involved in a liquor store robbery, but when dealing with terrorists and trying to obtain information that will save lives, I'm all up for it. It is not inhumane and it doesn't cause physical injury. If Rice and Bush and Chenney authorized it and it helped save lives, GOOD!

I am apalled by all the news this has created....especially when you consider that the person that was waterboarded planned the 9/11 attacks and was in the process of planning another attack where several jetlines would be blown up in mid air. And the freaking media and some delusional people are all concerned about this guy's civil rights and how much "suffering" he went through? Here is a news flash: if he had cooperated with information he would have avoided the water board.

Ah, yes. The end justifies the means thinking. Had some examples over here '40 to '45. Didn't really catch on as it turned out that some were willing to confess to anything under torture. So now we have at least two "civilised" and "democratic" countries that allow this. USA and Israel. Congratulations.
Per

You are welcome. If it prevents further terrorist attacks and death of innocent people, waterboarding is welcomed in my book. It is the most "humane" way to extract information from somebody. And apparently it worked because at least two plots were uncovered.

Or what do you suggest they should do...offer them lollypops in exchange for information?

[Putt4Par]

Waterboarding can hardly be considered torture.

It's not exactly a fun day out though. The real question, however, is what they thought they were trying to achieve by waterboarding him 180 times in a month, which is 6 times a day. You'd think after 20 or 40 times they'd realize he wouldn't crack, and the victim would also realize he wasn't going to die. What did they think they were doing ? The other guy, by the way, ie. Zubaydah, offered his information before he was even tortured.

It is certainly not a fun day. But it is designed to extract information without causing physical harm. Unfortunately the alternatives are either too soft or too harsh. However I agree that the number of times may seem high. Unfortunately none of us know the details of what was said and why they decided to do it several times. What constitutes one episode? One time to make him gag and stop the process? If that is the case then 6 times in one day could really amount to a one hour session at the most.

In the end, this guy planned the 9/11 attacks and was in the process of planning other attacks. He deseved to be hung from a testicle. I think he is getting a much better treatment compared to what he deserves.

[Sickbag]

[

Not sure. That is why I don't go around planning terrorist attacks against other countries. See, when you live a normal life you don't have to worry about getting "waterboarded".

Really? What if the security forces in your country don't believe you?
If you think it isn't torture then you wouldn't mind them subjecting you to such methods, just to be sure, would you?

[Putt4Par]

[

Not sure. That is why I don't go around planning terrorist attacks against other countries. See, when you live a normal life you don't have to worry about getting "waterboarded".

Really? What if the security forces in your country don't believe you?
If you think it isn't torture then you wouldn't mind them subjecting you to such methods, just to be sure, would you?

You are confusing things. I am not saying waterboarding is a walk in the park. I am sure it is not fun, but it is not torture as it doesn't harm you physically....like pulling your nails, stretching your body, cutting you, etc... If waterboarding is considered torture then we need to ban all of Barry Manilow's songs from being played at public places because it may be torture to some teenagers.

If I am a terrorist or associate with terrorists then I have to be ready to go through it. In the end it is my choice.

Security forces in my country? First of all my country is your country because you are an American...even with all your effort to try to make it look otherwise. You are probaly holed up with some militia group up in Michingan. Anyway, so far I haven't heard any reports of Americans being waterboarded by the local police or by the FBI to obtain information on a particular crime. This only applies to high level terrorists.

[Sickbag]

You are confusing things. I am not saying waterboarding is a walk in the park. I am sure it is not fun, but it is not torture as it doesn't harm you physically....

Then why have the US prosecuted people for waterboarding in the past?

[Sickbag]

Security forces in my country? First of all my country is your country because you are an American...even with all your effort to try to make it look otherwise. You are probaly holed up with some militia group up in Michingan. Anyway, so far I haven't heard any reports of Americans being waterboarded by the local police or by the FBI to obtain information on a particular crime. This only applies to high level terrorists.

Well I think your country is effectively my country, but not because of my nationality, but rather due to the unfortunate conjoined international follies we have together embarked on, of late.

[tds]

Then why have the US prosecuted people for waterboarding in the past?

P4P's personal definition of torture isn't the one that the US has signed up to under the CAT. It's just weird (and also self-serving) to think that only causing actual physical harm counts. Christopher Hitchens, not exactly a dove in the 'War on Terror', wrote an interesting article on waterboarding after being (very briefly!) subjected to it - and he probably had the advantage of being half-cut at the time: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat ... hens200808

Still, Sickbag, Happy Fourth of July and all that!

[Sickbag]

Still, Sickbag, Happy Fourth of July and all that!

Indeed.
God save America!
God bless the Queen!

[Putt4Par]

You are confusing things. I am not saying waterboarding is a walk in the park. I am sure it is not fun, but it is not torture as it doesn't harm you physically....

Then why have the US prosecuted people for waterboarding in the past?

Maybe because some let's-all-sing-kumbaya-and-the-world-will-be-a-better-place-and-evil-will-go-away liberal group
complained. And since we are not a democracy anymore and the majority is now too concerned about not offending the minority, they probably had to oblige.

Regardless, I am not speaking for or defending our government. I am giving my opinion about the waterboarding of
high profile terrorists in order to obtain valuable information.

[Sickbag]

Maybe because some let's-all-sing-kumbaya-and-the-world-will-be-a-better-place-and-evil-will-go-away liberal group
complained. And since we are not a democracy anymore and the majority is now too concerned about not offending the minority, they probably had to oblige.

I think you will find that the United states government was instrumental in organising tribunals that tried, convicted and executed Japanese soldiers of the imperial army who conducted water boarding on allied POWs.During WW2 the US government wasn't too bothered about offending minorities so much if the mass internment camps for American-Japanese are anything to go by.

[tds]

Not just the Japanese. Check out Judge Evan Wallach's writing on the legal history of waterboarding. A TX sheriff was convicted for using it in 1983. US soldiers faced courts martial for using the technique as long ago as the late 1800s.

It all seems very simple. Waterboarding was considered torture right up until the moment a US government decided they wanted to use it. Then a 'controversy' was manufactured by supporters of that government.

[Peter_K]

Well, at least the CIA officers can emerge from this torture with their hands clean.

So, did any of your family members receive a proper trial for introducing communism to Africa by the means of placing a gasoline filled tires around the necks of those who did not immediately fall in love with the Marxist doctrines and setting them aflame?

[Sickbag]

Well, at least the CIA officers can emerge from this torture with their hands clean.

So, did any of your family members receive a proper trial for introducing communism to Africa by the means of placing a gasoline filled tires around the necks of those who did not immediately fall in love with the Marxist doctrines and setting them aflame?

Although my relatives were banned and exiled from SA under the Suppression of Communism Act 20 or so years before neclacing became evident their B-B-Q parties were always poorly attended .

[rattler]

Waterboarding can hardly be considered torture. Please. I am not saying it should be used by the local police to find out if a person was involved in a liquor store robbery, but when dealing with terrorists and trying to obtain information that will save lives, I'm all up for it. It is not inhumane and it doesn't cause physical injury. If Rice and Bush and Chenney authorized it and it helped save lives, GOOD!

In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor. None of the "it is not physical dangering" at that time:

Excerpts of the trial (emphasis by me):

...That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.

... That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by forcing water into their mouths and noses;

...That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, -snip- by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose.

How would you explain double measures (i.e. waterbording is only torture if applied to US citizens) in the future and what law would yield if you tried (and sentenced) some who did it for war crimes and ignored others?

Rattler

[Putt4Par]

Waterboarding can hardly be considered torture. Please. I am not saying it should be used by the local police to find out if a person was involved in a liquor store robbery, but when dealing with terrorists and trying to obtain information that will save lives, I'm all up for it. It is not inhumane and it doesn't cause physical injury. If Rice and Bush and Chenney authorized it and it helped save lives, GOOD!

In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor. None of the "it is not physical dangering" at that time:

Excerpts of the trial (emphasis by me):

...That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.

... That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by forcing water into their mouths and noses;

...That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, -snip- by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose.

How would you explain double measures (i.e. waterbording is only torture if applied to US citizens) in the future and what law would yield if you tried (and sentenced) some who did it for war crimes and ignored others?

Rattler

Waterboarding = lay on an inclined board, towel on your face, water poured down on the towel. No water goes through it (at least not considerably) but
it makes you gag...even when you are not dying or suffering physical damage.

I think that is very different than pouring water straight into your nostrils and mouth. That would be the equivalent of drowning you alive. That is
a physical torture.