News from the E.U.

[Carlos G.]

Since we are a group of widespread personalities geographically speaking, I think it might be of interest to open up a thread where we can debate what is going on in our own "playground", the integration efforts, the difficulties in integrating, the benefits, the common currency, why an E.U. was built up in the first place, etc. Anyone interested?

[Frankie]

Yup. I think that people like Sarkozy are a major step backwards in european politics. The situation in Italy is not much better. I wonder how this will go on...

[Carlos G.]

Yup. I think that people like Sarkozy are a major step backwards in european politics. The situation in Italy is not much better. I wonder how this will go on...

Sarkozy is still a mistery to me. Too ecclectic for a President but maybe that brings more transparency into the office, a much needed attribute in France. And, so far, there has been a calm in those districts which are a social melting pot. As to Italy, well, this country has its own political rules... but when I go there (twice a year) I find everyday life quite enjoyable and all seems to run without problems (not going into Naples however...).

[Carlos G.]

Yup. I think that people like Sarkozy are a major step backwards in european politics. The situation in Italy is not much better. I wonder how this will go on...

Sarkozy is still a mistery to me. Too ecclectic for a President but maybe that brings more transparency into the office, a much needed attribute in France. And, so far, there has been a calm in those districts which are a social melting pot. As to Italy, well, this country has its own political rules... but when I go there (twice a year) I find everyday life quite enjoyable and all seems to run without problems (not going into Naples however...).

Here you have an important news regarding Sarkozy, France and Italy...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

See Frankie? It's a major step forwards, it's all made in the clear... not like Mitterand who had two completely distinct families and noone knew it for decades... or like in the UK where the marital life of the royal family is what we know...

[GerryW]

I like some parts of the idea of EU, but that we are starting to be overregulated from Brussels gives me a strong heartburn. What is it good for that we get regulations from Brussels, when still every government does what it wants. And what I think is that because of this regulating a lot of regional cultural 'goods' are disappearing. Something typical, let's say Italian soon doesn't exist anymore.

We could take the cheese producers in France for example. Brussels brought regulations that the producers are no more allowed to produce cheese with fresh raw milk. But unfortunately this way the typical unique taste of this cheese is gone. There are still more of this glorious examples of regulating Europe.

Better would be they would regulate that there is only one kind of socket in whole EU so that you don't need to have always adapters with you.

It's good to have at least a common currency and to be able to travel with no restrictions inside the EU. Free market is a plus too. When I remember how it was still in the 80's, when I ordered 3 Aviation videos in Germany, I had to go to Customs and had to file an import declaration. Was it over a set amount (can't remember anymore) you had to pay still extra taxes. This is what I like best today. I order something in UK for example, get it delivered to my address, no declarations to file, the same for every country and almost every sum. And at that time no many firms wanted to send goods to foreign countries which is today no problem at all.

[David Hilditch]

I hope you enthusiasts for the European Union can live with Tony Blair as EU President.

[GerryW]

I hope you enthusiasts for the European Union can live with Tony Blair as EU President.

David, forget this. The first EU president will be our a$$hole Prime Minister J.C.Juncker. Many other European government favorite him and want him as first president. First he denied and said he want to stay as Luxembourgish Prime Minister. But rumors say that he already agreed that when he is called for that job he will come. Openly he can't tell this because next year are elections, and because of a lot unpopular changes (car taxes, index manipulations, etc.etc.) his parti and the coalition parti lost in last polls. But they are scared to loose even more, so he admitted that so far this year there will be no unpopular action more.
Beware of him, he's sleazier than Blair.

P.S.
I am only European enthusiast in what concerns free traveling and free market. The common currency comes very handy for us Luxembourgers. Remembering the times when we went for shopping to Trier (50km from us) we had to go to the bank and change money. (of course credit card worked too, but sometimes you couldn't pay something by card). When you went to Italy, and you drove via Switzerland to Italy and on the way back via Austria and Germany with several stays, you had to have 4 different currencies.
This is what I like from the EU.
Wasn't this the idea of creating the United States of Europe?

I hate this overregulating what is happening now. Soon even our farts have to be calibrated.

And then this farce with the Constitution, it failed in two countries. Brussels paused the process, renamed the thing and pulled two pages out of it. France and the Netherlands where it was rejected first time, accept it now. Hilarious!

[David Hilditch]

David, forget this. The first EU president will be our a$$hole Prime Minister J.C.Juncker. Many other European government favorite him and want him as first president. First he denied and said he want to stay as Luxembourgish Prime Minister. But rumors say that he already agreed that when he is called for that job he will come. Openly he can't tell this because next year are elections, and because of a lot unpopular changes (car taxes, index manipulations, etc.etc.) his parti and the coalition parti lost in last polls. But they are scared to loose even more, so he admitted that so far this year there will be no unpopular action more.

I understand, and thanks for the response. There is some irony somewhere in the idea of the prime minister of Luxembourg becoming the president of the EU.

Yes, it's hard to disagree with the benefits of the free market and common currency, eurosceptic as I am.

[GerryW]

Yes, it's hard to disagree with the benefits of the free market and common currency, eurosceptic as I am.

I never was a big Pro-European but today I think that they are on the wrong way. This is all going in the pants.

[ZeroAltitude]

Soon even our farts have to be calibrated.

Great! That made me laugh so hard that an uncalibrated one escaped me.
But you're absolutely right there, Gerry.
What started out as a great idea with a vision is boiling down to a gigantic system of money-wasting bureaucracy. I still have to hear of an EU norm that people can actually benefit from - most of them just make life that little bit more expensive for us. At least that is what it feels like on my part.
I agree that apart from the open borders and the common currency, there's not much I like about EU.

[FrankM]

Soon even our farts have to be calibrated.

Great! That made me laugh so hard that an uncalibrated one escaped me.
But you're absolutely right there, Gerry.
What started out as a great idea with a vision is boiling down to a gigantic system of money-wasting bureaucracy. I still have to hear of an EU norm that people can actually benefit from - most of them just make life that little bit more expensive for us. At least that is what it feels like on my part.
I agree that apart from the open borders and the common currency, there's not much I like about EU.

Thanks that somebody labels it. For me, living close to France, it is of course a benefit that I don't have to keep two wallets. But other than that I still have to see what it's good for. The standardisation of the "Euro egg" for sure isn't.

[Carlos G.]

Soon even our farts have to be calibrated.

Great! That made me laugh so hard that an uncalibrated one escaped me.
But you're absolutely right there, Gerry.
What started out as a great idea with a vision is boiling down to a gigantic system of money-wasting bureaucracy. I still have to hear of an EU norm that people can actually benefit from - most of them just make life that little bit more expensive for us. At least that is what it feels like on my part.
I agree that apart from the open borders and the common currency, there's not much I like about EU.

We are now living in one of the most costly and expensive parts of the world. Maybe Switzerland, Iceland and Botswana are more expensive in some aspects, but otherwise what we call "common currency" is costing us our former easy living. Today I went having lunch with my father. I payed near to 60 Euros (here in Portugal!) for a simple meal with a bottle of normal portuguese red wine! For this money a couple could have stayed one night at the Sheraton here in Porto before the Euro was the currency! 60 Euro means 120 Deutsch-Mark, for this money you could have had a meal for two in a luxury restaurant in Munich of Düsselforf! Not in the outskirts of Porto...

[GerryW]

But this is not only the Euro's fault. I see it on the prices how meat is getting more and more expensive. Livestock has to be fed. The last 3-4 years it was to dry. The crop was less and from bad quality. How long it did not rain in Portugal last year? Then because of EU-regulations (great, here we are again) water got more expensive, because it has to be sold for the price it really costs. Here in Luxembourg, water price raised in some communities between 100% and 200%. A cow needs 120-180l/day and gives around 30-50l of milk.
Veggies got much much more expensive too. The plants had to be watered; with water...

What I wanted to say is that even without the Euro prices would have risen same too.

And then, the salaries went up too; inflation, higher costs of living. This all reflects on your meal too you had with your father.

[Carlos G.]

Gerry,

you may have scored some point s in your favour, but the Euro messed up the whole consciousness of people towards the value of money. Of course reality is nowadays another than it was some years back. Agricultural surface has diminished due to crops of oil producing plants, cattle raising in the E.U. has been destimulated, same with corn, vegetables, etc. But IMHO this E.U. concept is costing us all way too much than we have been told. With which real benefits? That we now think in common from our Atlantic shores way up to Finland?

[Thunder Down Under]

This Europeam Market concept has been bugging me for years. Namely, why did the UK join? They already had their own market. It was named The British Commonwealth. They would buy our Australian lamb, they would buy our Tasmanian apples, they would buy our Australian wheat, they would buy New Zealand lamb. In return we would buy their manufactured goods, some good and some not so good, like their bloody awful shoddy motor cars. The trucks weren't so bad for the time. Leylands and Bedfords opened up a lot of the outback until smarter nations took up new technology and beat them at it. When they joined it created untold misery in our and New Zealands exports. The door was slammed in our faces.

On another point. I see that along with a common currency, all the European nations have no border controls. And what havoc that is creating. I used to travel to the UK approximately every two years. On my last trip I could not believe the difference in the England I used to know. It was overun by people of different nations and they seemed to be living in their own little ghetto's and if I believe what I have been told, most are living off the British taxpayer in the form of welfare payments.

Needless to say, I have not returned to the UK now, since 2000.

OK, enough of the rant. It is good that we can debate this and other (contraversial) subjects on this new forum with out people getting their panties in a twist and with out the name calling

TDU


Sheesz, did that without one .........

[Carlos G.]

This Europeam Market concept has been bugging me for years. Namely, why did the UK join? They already had their own market. It was named The British Commonwealth. They would buy our Australian lamb, they would buy our Tasmanian apples, they would buy our Australian wheat, they would buy New Zealand lamb. In return we would buy their manufactured goods, some good and some not so good, like their bloody awful shoddy motor cars. The trucks weren't so bad for the time. Leylands and Bedfords opened up a lot of the outback until smarter nations took up new technology and beat them at it. When they joined it created untold misery in our and New Zealands exports. The door was slammed in our faces.

Maybe David (Hilditch of course) can tell us better than me why the UK joined the EU but I believe the "founding fathers" had something very specific in mind when they persuaded countries like Germany, France, the UK, Italy and the Benelux to give the starting kick in the Rome treaty. I believe it was to avoid for ever another threat of war scenario. Then other countries joined and rules were created which are making the EU what it is now. I believe we will see the true result only in 20 or 30 years time, when the new generation of today (the teen agers) will be in governing places by then. We knew what it was before (the EU) they do not.

On another point. I see that along with a common currency, all the European nations have no border controls. And what havoc that is creating. I used to travel to the UK approximately every two years. On my last trip I could not believe the difference in the England I used to know. It was overun by people of different nations and they seemed to be living in their own little ghetto's and if I believe what I have been told, most are living off the British taxpayer in the form of welfare payments.

Needless to say, I have not returned to the UK now, since 2000.

OK, enough of the rant. It is good that we can debate this and other (contraversial) subjects on this new forum with out people getting their panties in a twist and with out the name calling

TDU

What countries like the UK, the Netherlands, France, etc. allow on the immigration side has nothing to do with the EU and border control. This control is tight in the countries which are periferic, I see it here in Portugal. The controls at our airports are more than tight for people outside of the EU, refugees coming in for instance from Morocco by sea are immediately repatriated to their respective homelands. On the other hand we need "fresh blood" and working forces doing the kind of work our own people do not want to do...

[David Hilditch]

[quote="Carlos G."]Maybe David (Hilditch of course) can tell us better than me why the UK joined the EU but I believe the "founding fathers" had something very specific in mind when they persuaded countries like Germany, France, the UK, Italy and the Benelux to give the starting kick in the Rome treaty. I believe it was to avoid for ever another threat of war scenario. Then other countries joined and rules were created which are making the EU what it is now. I believe we will see the true result only in 20 or 30 years time, when the new generation of today (the teen agers) will be in governing places by then. We knew what it was before (the EU) they do not.
[quote]

The UK wasn't in the first wave of countries that joined the union (or EEC as it then was). While Churchill flirted with the idea of European unity, to include Britain, the original Treaty of Rome of the 1950s excluded Britain, largely due to French resistance and British indecision. The other countries joined largely to defuse the threat of further war, especially to bind France and Germany (then West Germany). The UK joined, when it did in 1973, following deep revolutionary change in the patterns of British commerce following the loss of the empire and British economic weakness in general after WW2. The UK had a profound inability to decide whether it was a European country or a 'world' country with influence to the old commonwealth and the United States. The UK is still to this day grappling with these dilemmas. The improvement in British economic power and influence since 1980 or so is no thanks to the EU and thus reinforces the dilemma today. That said, it's partly a generational thing, and while old war horses like me remain deeply skeptical about the value of the EU to the UK, younger people seem more accepting, and at the end of the day you can't change geography. I think British pragmatism, rule of law and 'anglo-saxon' market-style economic policies (eg. fostering competition) has had some beneficial impact on Europe, but I still feel, overall, that the EU is basically a Franco-German racket.

You could put it like this. Almost every country that joined the union, including the original six and the latest entrants, see membership as a victory. Uniquely, I think, the British saw it as a defeat - reflecting the loss of power and a sense of having a European destiny forced upon it against its will.

This is a big subject, and I don't have time to go into it in depth. The ur-text for this is a book called This Blessed Plot, by Hugo Young, a terrific book for those who want to follow up.

[Carlos G.]

Yes, this is a big subject indeed and we can make follow-ups step-by-step as we have time and inspiration to do it. It will be undoubtedly an interesting matter.

[Thunder Down Under]

Snip[quote="Carlos G."][/quote]

I believe we will see the true result only in 20 or 30 years time, when the new generation of today (the teen agers) will be in governing places by then. We knew what it was before (the EU) they do not.

[quote]Snip

You are certainly right there, Carlos. Allowing for a bit of thread creep, I noticed this in Rhodesia (no, I don't recognise Zimbabwe) just over a year ago. The younger people there have no knowledge of what their country was like before that despot Mugarbi (sp) came to power. The older generation still have memories of the old system. Though probably not the best in todays polictically correct world, at least they did not starve.

TDU

[GerryW]

Gerry,

you may have scored some point s in your favour, but the Euro messed up the whole consciousness of people towards the value of money. Of course reality is nowadays another than it was some years back. Agricultural surface has diminished due to crops of oil producing plants, cattle raising in the E.U. has been destimulated, same with corn, vegetables, etc. But IMHO this E.U. concept is costing us all way too much than we have been told. With which real benefits? That we now think in common from our Atlantic shores way up to Finland?

I totally agree with you on this, Carlos. But when people have problems to learn the value of the new currency. I know for older people it was very difficult in the beginning. The hairdressers made a nice tip at the beginning. The customers were used to give up until 100 LUF (now 2,50€) as tip. after the change to € they gave up until 20€. The girls were more than happy. Today it is like this that a lot of customers give only 50 cents.
Still today for bigger sums I make a calculation in how much it would have been in LUF. Sometimes it hurts...

<<The EU concept is costing us too much>> and will even more. Wait until we get the European Tax they are working on.What I already mentioned in a post earlier, that a lot of regulations the different states have to follow (like the water regulations) make prices go up like hell here. And all these administrative tasks they have 'prescribed' the even smallest firms to follow, are making it more difficult for them to survive or they are making their prices go up as well, because more work or more staff needed.

Even though at last polls more than 80% of the population of Luxembourg was satisfied with the EU, I know that this is again a typical not reality showing poll, because I still didn't meet even one soul who likes the present situation, all are sending (EU) Brussels to hell

[Ancient Mariner]

LOTS OF SNIPPING

You could put it like this. Almost every country that joined the union, including the original six and the latest entrants, see membership as a victory. Uniquely, I think, the British saw it as a defeat - reflecting the loss of power and a sense of having a European destiny forced upon it against its will.

This is a big subject, and I don't have time to go into it in depth. The ur-text for this is a book called This Blessed Plot, by Hugo Young, a terrific book for those who want to follow up.

Every time we have a referendum, and the resultant advice is "No to Eu", we consider it a victory.
Per

[GerryW]

Every time we have a referendum, and the resultant advice is "No to Eu", we consider it a victory.
Per

Here they resigned from referendums because they know why!

[Jorge]

As for the benefits of the EU, I can not speak for mainland Portugal, however in the Azores the infrastructures continue to grow by leaps and bounds. Every construction project is co-financed by FEDER. There is no way that the infrastructure could have improved the way it has with funds only from the Regional and National Governments. Soooooo I am glad to see your taxes are at work

[GerryW]

As for the benefits of the EU, I can not speak for mainland Portugal, however in the Azores the infrastructures continue to grow by leaps and bounds. Every construction project is co-financed by FEDER. There is no way that the infrastructure could have improved the way it has with funds only from the Regional and National Governments. Soooooo I am glad to see your taxes are at work

Of course you are right with this too, Jorge. When Spain and Portugal came to the EU, they 'bloomed'. New roads were build industry went up etc. etc. The same when I go to Czech Republic. The first time I have been there was in 1996. There already some things were financed by EU even though they still weren't even thinking of being EU-member in the close future. I saw one of the most modern (Brown) Coal Electricity Power Plant of whole Europe. The latest technology in filters at that time were used there. But otherwise, roads were bad and economy wasn't great too.

But today it's different. Only around Prague, so much has been done. New highways, industrial complexes. Intel, Sony, etc. etc. Panasonic has a TV production facility at Plzen which is bigger than the Good-Year production plant in Luxembourg (which is the European headquarter).
The economy in Czech Republic is good too. People start to earn money. A simple cashier in a supermarket makes more than double like she would have done 10 years ago. But they spend it too. So business is growing. Around Prague, unemployment is as good as almost non-existent (less than 2%) At some places they even can't get enough workforces. Imagine that even Germans go to Czech Republic to work, because they can't find a job in Germany.

So much for the economical wellbeing for the 'new' EU countries.

But the downside of this whole EU thing is the Overregulations by the EU and instead of making it easier for smaller firms, they make it much more difficult to survive. And it's the simple people who suffer from it too. Because all this stuff is making living in the EU zone much more expensive. Even when you hear the economy is good in Europe, it's not true.
Luxembourg should have a growth of around 7% last year. It was around 6%. But the best is it's coming from two sectors. The financial sector and the construction sector. We have a lot of Banks here, which make a lot of money. The construction sector was blooming for almost 20 years, but it starts to cool of. (are the first American waves coming to Europe?) Prices of houses for sale went only up the last two decades. But now they stagnate, or they are going backwards. A house priced over 500.000€ you could be sure, was sold in less than two weeks. Today, it's difficult to sell houses over 500.000€. But the other sectors are complaining. Customers don't spend so much like they did. They prefer to save the money. Or they can't spent so much anymore, because the last two years mortgage interest went up, and they have to pay back high monthly rates because their mortgage couldn't be high enough when they signed it when the interest were low.

EZB is now considering too lower the interest at their next meeting. But still last month Trichet said, that they would have to raise the rate, because of the inflation in EU-space. But suddenly (I think it was last Friday) he said that probably they would have to lower the rate because the market is cooling of.

The whole EU-thing is getting to complicated to run, and everything what they try or change is backfiring. And the people in the EU start to be (very) upset because of this. Perhaps there are now countries, who have some profit from it (like the islands you mentioned or the new Eu members) but wait until it's going to cool of there too.

[AndyToop]

But the downside of this whole EU thing is the Overregulations by the EU and instead of making it easier for smaller firms, they make it much more difficult to survive. And it's the simple people who suffer from it too. Because all this stuff is making living in the EU zone much more expensive. Even when you hear the economy is good in Europe, it's not true.
Luxembourg should have a growth of around 7% last year. It was around 6%. But the best is it's coming from two sectors. The financial sector and the construction sector. We have a lot of Banks here, which make a lot of money. The construction sector was blooming for almost 20 years, but it starts to cool of. (are the first American waves coming to Europe?) Prices of houses for sale went only up the last two decades. But now they stagnate, or they are going backwards. A house priced over 500.000€ you could be sure, was sold in less than two weeks. Today, it's difficult to sell houses over 500.000€. But the other sectors are complaining. Customers don't spend so much like they did. They prefer to save the money. Or they can't spent so much anymore, because the last two years mortgage interest went up, and they have to pay back high monthly rates because their mortgage couldn't be high enough when they signed it when the interest were low.

EZB is now considering too lower the interest at their next meeting. But still last month Trichet said, that they would have to raise the rate, because of the inflation in EU-space. But suddenly (I think it was last Friday) he said that probably they would have to lower the rate because the market is cooling of.

This is something that I think is true across the whole of Europe. For decades we have been moving to higher private home ownership and being duped into thinking that higher house prices are a good thing. This is both true and false at the same time. Good for the Banks (assuming they lend to people who will pay back of course!) who are a major factor in most western economies and the construction companies. But not really good for the rest of the economy. So bad in fact that its effect has been hidden from us. House price inflation and more importantly mortgage inflation is not factored into the inflation numbers of the EU countries. If average wages are going up at 3% while average prices are going up at 2% everything looks nice, but where as 20 years ago you would get an "average" house for a deposit of roughly 2 months "average" salary and mortgage 3x an "average" salary, that is now about 10 months "average" salary and mortgage 5x an "average" salary.