US army murder footage released

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Marc 1
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Marc 1 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:12 am

The answer of course is for troops not to be in Afghanistan
Bzzzt. That would be a reversion of history. I have stated before and I will state it again, I don't think Aussie troops should have been deplayed to the middle east full stop. But they are there - and the politicians that have committed the troops (who don't have a choice to go) whilst they wring their hands and mutter platitudes about the 'terrible incident' haven't yet realised that they failed to understand the larger ramifications to throwing our lot in with NATO. Anybody with any schooling on warfare or who reads history should have known that this is exactly the type and kind of warfare where the innocents are always in the front line.

So don't be looking for excuses for the attrocities that occur in a war, the answers you'll get will disappoint.

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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Marc 1 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:33 am

I wonder how may of those 'good things' have been accomplished by NGOs and other non military bodies or how many of them could be achieved by such organisations given a demilitarisation of Afghanistan.
Yes, the ‘good things’ are mostly carried out by non-military organizations.
Strongly disagree. Many of the civil aid organisations are inefficient and particularly when working in concert with the central government, inept and possibly corrupt.

Case in point (it was an article from a british newspaper) an article about a british regiment that just moved in to a small town in Helmand province. The CO of the unit did a tour of the area, found at the local hospital filthy sheets and surgical gowns. Asked if there was something he could do to help he was shown a large brand new german made industrial washing machine (the sort that can cope with a hospital load of laundry. Perfect. Problem was it was still in the plastic and on a pallet. It needed to be installed. No problem, the CO puts in a request to his higher headquarters for the local REME unit to come down and install it (a 1 day job for a sparky and plumber apparently). Higher HQ vetoed the request because then the aid would have been seen as coming from the british army, instead higher HQ passed the request onto the Afghan administration for that to be done (theory being that then the benevolent central government would be seen to be working for the people). Many repeated requests were passed over the following months. The Battalion rotated back to the UK after 9 months (not sure of the exact timeframe) and the washing machine was still sitting in the basement in its plastic...

Now, this request which would undoubtedly have saved lives and would have started the hearts and minds policy in the province was sent to an organisation staffed by very many contractors and other aid organisations.

A recent interview with a bloke that recently retired from the UN (very highly regarded and in positions of quite some influence) basically explained that the UN and other aid organisations are filled with people more interested in getting another contract than doing an efficient job. After all, if you do your job well and efficiently, you could end up making yourself redundant...

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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Marc 1 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:02 am

Found that article:

Dirty laundry

“My biggest regret about Afghanistan is over a washing machine,” says Stuart Tootal. The machine in question was in a hospital in Gereshk in the south of Helmand and was discovered by Tootal’s men on their first patrol in May 2006.

“The hospital sheets were filthy and the doctor said they couldn’t wash them,” he explained. “But we said, ‘You have an industrial washing machine sitting there in cellophane.’”

The US aid agency that had donated it withdrew when the British arrived so it had never been installed.An engineer with Tootal said that could be rectified, but they had not reckoned with the Department for International Development. It saw aid as its area and disliked “quick impact” projects.

“They didn’t want the military going into hospitals and they said we would tread on the toes of an aid agency even though it wasn’t doing anything,” said Tootal. “I said, ‘It doesn’t have to be done under the cloak of 3 Para. We can dress ourselves up as Afghans, do it at night. We just need to fix it.’”

The government officials refused, so for the whole of 3 Para’s six months in Helmand, the machine sat there in its plastic wrapping.

Tootal believes failure to carry out such “hearts and minds” operations has cost Britain in the long run. “It would have made us stand apart from the usual Afghan experience of foreigners constantly promising and not delivering,” he said.

from: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 364115.ece

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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Sickbag » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:13 am


Strongly disagree.

You strongly disagree then spend two long tedious posts proving the opposite.
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Marc 1
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Marc 1 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:28 am


Strongly disagree.

You strongly disagree then spend two long tedious posts proving the opposite.
Explain?

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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Sickbag » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:57 am


Strongly disagree.

You strongly disagree then spend two long tedious posts proving the opposite.
Explain?
Bzzzt. That would be a reversion of history.
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Marc 1
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Marc 1 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:23 pm

Verbal, "time to say I told ya so". Sickbag, I had thought you were better than to be a troll.

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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Sickbag » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:53 pm

Verbal, "time to say I told ya so". Sickbag, I had thought you were better than to be a troll.
Kinda like the way you label me a troll because I responded with exactly the same words YOU did. :clap:
Do the words 'fascist liberal ' mean anything to you?
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Verbal » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:57 pm

Do the words 'fascist liberal ' mean anything to you?
Welcome back to the forum, ATFS_Crash.
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Marc 1 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:06 pm

Verbal, "time to say I told ya so". Sickbag, I had thought you were better than to be a troll.
Kinda like the way you label me a troll because I responded with exactly the same words YOU did. :clap:
Do the words 'fascist liberal ' mean anything to you?
Wasted enough time here pal - I won't be taking the bait this time.

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Sickbag
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Sickbag » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:54 pm

Wasted enough time here pal - I won't be taking the bait this time.
OK I respect that and I appreciate you admit you were wrong
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Sickbag » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:36 pm

Deaths of Afghan civilians by NATO troops have more than doubled this year, NATO statistics show, jeopardizing a U.S. campaign to win over the local population by protecting them against insurgent attacks.

NATO troops accidentally killed 72 civilians in the first three months of 2010, up from 29 in the same period in 2009, according to figures the International Security Assistance Force gave USA TODAY.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010 ... ting_N.htm

So what are we doing there again?
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby David Hilditch » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:52 pm

Strongly disagree. Many of the civil aid organisations are inefficient and particularly when working in concert with the central government, inept and possibly corrupt.
One wonders why the commanding officer and his men did not just use their own local initiative and set up the washing machine on their own authority.

In general, I think I know what you mean and partly agree. I’m not really referring to UN, World Bank or direct civilian government-injected aid (eg. USAID, DFID etc.), which I agree is often ineffective or corrupt or both (though some of the stuff the World Food Program delivers can be effective at times). I’m talking more about small and medium enterprise development, microfinance stuff, private NGOs. Many of these also fail, but a few do work well, which was my original point. Some of these projects can, as it happens, be financed by the USAIDs of this world as well, and with enough delegation down the line to local operators they can sometimes produce good works. The real problem, even with successful outcomes, is to ensure that they remain sustainable over the long-term, since failure is probable after a few years without a critical mass of deeply embedded social/human capital, good property rights and the rule of law (which is what has happened in other countries, especially the former Soviet Union).

Diminishing security since 2007 across much of the country has vastly inflated the cost of civil aid projects. Western countries say that a democratic, prosperous and lawful Afghanistan is the principal objective, in order to deter conditions which promote terrorism, so this would be an argument for more Western investment in civil society programs, supported by increased military intervention in the name of peace-keeping. However, given our stated intentions to withdraw our military forces as soon as we can, a process that will take decades is clearly not likely to be well supported. We will likely be left with the NGOs, a few token government projects and a few quasi-charitable private foreign investors to provide funds and personnel for a few small-scale projects, and nothing much will change.

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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Sickbag » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:02 pm

AN American soldier who took part in an attack in which 12 people, including a Reuters journalist, were killed and two children injured has written an emotional apology to the victims’ families in Iraq...

Knowing that I was part of the system that took their father away from them ... it’s heartbreaking,” said McCord.

“That is what helped me and Josh write the letter, hoping that it would find its way to them to let them know that we’re sorry. We’re sorry for the system that we were involved in that took their father’s life and injured them.” Furious debate has raged in America over the military rules of engagement. “Personally I believe the first attack was appropriate,” says McCord, referring to the attack on the group of men.

“They did have weapons there. However, I don’t feel that the attack on the van was necessary ... the Apaches [helicopters] decided to completely obliterate everybody in the van.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 107197.ece
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Marc 1
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Marc 1 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:30 am

Can't get the timesonline link to load Sickbag. But rather than selectively quoting bits of McCords interview - the whole lot is here:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04 ... z0lgjd5MCy

So:

weapons were present (RPG and AK's)

30mm makes a mess.

And the rules of engagement seem to allow shots at people joining the scene of action.

Not particularly happy about the outcome of the van, but when you maybe 1.7 km away watching a black and white image in the nose of an Apache, it could be hard to detect what the van was carrying.

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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Sickbag » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:20 pm


Not particularly happy about the outcome of the van, but when you maybe 1.7 km away watching a black and white image in the nose of an Apache, it could be hard to detect what the van was carrying.

I agree.
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Re: US army murder footage released

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:02 pm

Presumed video leak source arrested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10265430.stm
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