Speeding tickets.

[Peminu]

What happens when a pilot is asked to mantain a speed and doesn't comply?

Do traffic controllers report him (her) or do they normally just call him again by radio and do nothing else?

If he (she) is reported, what is the mechanism? File a report?, license suspended?, a black mark on his (her) documents?

And, how often will this happen and what do you think is the percentage of "tickets" vs actual violations?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

[VectorForFood]

It's quite rare pilots are actually reported by ATC.

If pilots are asked to maintain a speed it's normally for intrail spacing, it's used enroute using mach settings, or on approach using knots... as always it's an indicated airspeed/machspeed assignment.

ATC only sees the pilots groundspeed, so while they may be restricted to 250 knots, they could be on the scope going 300+ with a good stiff tailwind, but that being said, two airplanes assigned 250 at the same altitude should ground roughly the same. If the offending aircraft actually chooses to fly faster anyway, it won't get them anywhere but a nice long vector clear of traffic, and they'll end up burning far more fuel than if they just had listened, something I think most pilots are quite aware of, or enroute, we'll just dump the airplane who "wont slow down" to a lower altitude, something the pilots usually don't want either.

I've never personally heard of "Tickets" to pilots. For us, if a pilot is "reported" to a supervisor or manager, usually there is an AOR filed (Occurance report) and if warranted, it is sent to (up here anyway) Transport Canada enforcement who then chooses weather to take action on the pilot, or just provide a warning. I would make a rough guess that 99% of the time most incidents are usually sorted out on frequency if safety was not jeopardized, or by getting the pilot to call the centre once on the ground to have a chat about it.

The most common thing pilots are reported for is altitude busts (Going through an assigned altitude or flight level)

and another common one around here anyway:
Incorrectly flying an approach, (Cleared for the ILS Approach but flies the visual once talking to tower)

I've never heard of a pilot being busted for not adhering to a speed restriction yet, since it is almost impossible to prove beyond a doubt. We know their altitude exactly, but the speed is ground speed, something at which the pilot is at the mercy of the wind.

[3WE]

and another common one around here anyway:
Incorrectly flying an approach, (Cleared for the ILS Approach but flies the visual once talking to tower)

Can you explain this Multiman? I am only aware of a few "visual" approaches that "tell where to fly", so how to you determine and prove that the pilot is flying a visual approach?

Don't need the definitions- I know you can fly an ILS during CAVU and look out the window while you do it too, but at what point do you figure out "this guy is flying a visual approach"

Are we talking 1000, 100 or 10 ft deviations from GS for you guys to "commonly" declare that a guy is flying visually.

Also, given that a plane is usually switched to the tower somewhat close to the outer marker where I'd think they'd be "locked in"- I don't see that you could go too far off the glideslope or the localizer even if you "shut off" the Nav radio when you switched to the tower.

(And for clarity- yes I know you can get full-scale needle deflections, but that translates to very little deviation in terms of absolute distance for ATC to either detect it on a normal radar or to cause a genuine traffic conflict??????)

Do you guys have PAR and on clear days assign someone to bust pilots who deviate from the ILS course???

Thanks.

[Peminu]

Thanks for your extensive answer VFF.

[VectorForFood]

and another common one around here anyway:
Incorrectly flying an approach, (Cleared for the ILS Approach but flies the visual once talking to tower)

Can you explain this Multiman? I am only aware of a few "visual" approaches that "tell where to fly", so how to you determine and prove that the pilot is flying a visual approach?

Don't need the definitions- I know you can fly an ILS during CAVU and look out the window while you do it too, but at what point do you figure out "this guy is flying a visual approach"

Are we talking 1000, 100 or 10 ft deviations from GS for you guys to "commonly" declare that a guy is flying visually.

Also, given that a plane is usually switched to the tower somewhat close to the outer marker where I'd think they'd be "locked in"- I don't see that you could go too far off the glideslope or the localizer even if you "shut off" the Nav radio when you switched to the tower.

(And for clarity- yes I know you can get full-scale needle deflections, but that translates to very little deviation in terms of absolute distance for ATC to either detect it on a normal radar or to cause a genuine traffic conflict??????)

Do you guys have PAR and on clear days assign someone to bust pilots who deviate from the ILS course???

Thanks.

First off I want to clarify that I am an enroute controller, so I don't personally issue approach instructions, but do work quite closely with those that do, and being a smaller unit, usually hear all the ranting anytime such events occur. I do not know if over a long history this has been a problem, I just know in the last year I have heard and read (logbook) of several incidents of similar nature.

From what I understand and I may be mistaken, this involves aircraft that have been cleared for an ILS approach via a certain fix from farther back, not actually while on the final approach course as you have eluded to. This can occur at a controlled airport, or in some instances at an uncontrolled airport (FSS served)

An aircraft could be vectored for intercept or given "cleared via FIXXA, given the approach instructions and switched to tower, then decide to cut it for the threshold instead of intercepting the ILS.


The end result normally doesn't result in anymore lateral deviation of anything more than 3-4NM, but in a terminal control zone the minimum required lateral spacing is 3NM, it's not just a matter of actually coming close to another aircraft, it's also a matter of procedure. Crews can't just go wherever they want without an ATC clearance. If a pilot is talking to tower or to an FSS person on an ILS approach they can request a visual approach, but the tower/fss person has to request it first from the IFR controller. 99/100 this will not be a problem. It's the 1/100 controllers worry about.

[3WE]

Thank's MultiVector.

3 miles off course is significant- and probably could have you conflicting with someone else or yeah, even just messing up the pretty picture on the scope bad enough to where the controller has a valild complaint!

I guess I'm shocked as it's always been made clear to me that "cleared for the ILS" has significant legal ramifcations that have nothing to do with visibility! I'm amazed that someone would blatantly and "significantly" blow off the ILS course.

Slight deviation because you are looking outside instead of burying your head looking at the needles strikes me as one thing- but being 3 miles off course and clearly blowing off some fix, yep, sounds worthy of getting a "traffic ticket".

Folks really do this with some regularity?

[VectorForFood]

Well off hand I can remember at least three in the last I'd say 6 months that I am aware of.

Not just private aircraft either, commercial operators.

Now that I think of it, I'm not sure if it's ever happened at a Controlled airport, mostly at uncontrolled airports served by Flight service personnell, although that still doesn't change the validity of the IFR clearence.

[3WE]

Well off hand I can remember at least three in the last I'd say 6 months that I am aware of.

Not just private aircraft either, commercial operators.

Now that I think of it, I'm not sure if it's ever happened at a Controlled airport, mostly at uncontrolled airports served by Flight service personnell, although that still doesn't change the validity of the IFR clearence.

1) Every other month and commercial operators IS a raised eyebrow!

2) The aspect of "uncontrolled airports" is an interesting twist- those crews are operating along with uncontrolled VFR aircraft, and thus have extra responsibility for traffic separation, and "need extra freedom to maneuver away from VFR traffic"....Nevertheless, I agree- Cleared for the ILS means something and may also be significant to separation from other traffic, so it's interesting that professional flight crews will grossly deviate from the ILS routings roughly every 60 days!

[VectorForFood]

While they are "uncontrolled" there is a live FSS person in a tower, monitoring traffic.

The zone is a "MF" (Mandatory Frequency) So while the FSS person cannot order planes where to go, they can advise each aircraft of each other and suggest possible solutions.

I have a friend who is an FSS in CYTS... he likens keeping planes apart at an FSS facility like using "Jedi Mind tricks" since you can't actually tell an airplane where to go.