737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

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Sickbag
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737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby Sickbag » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:26 am

Amazing that the US/FAA is the last country in the world to recognise that the 737 MAX has a possible inherent design failure and is dragged kicking & screaming to put the safety of passengers & crew first, by Trump of all people.
It took about 72 hours for reality to close in on Donald Trump. One by one, the world’s regulators — led by China, swiftly followed by the EU — grounded Boeing’s 737 Max planes following two disastrous crashes. Under pressure from Mr Trump, America’s Federal Aviation Administration held out. When Canada joined, America’s isolation was almost complete. Mr Trump’s stance offers a unique example of the world spurning America’s lead on airline safety. His reversal is a “teachable moment” — to quote his predecessor, Barack Obama — on the realities of a fast-changing world.
https://www.ft.com/content/072ffe40-45d ... a37d002cd3
TRUMP: in-presidency structural break-up
within 96 months...

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby 3WE » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:04 pm

Most interesting times...

You hint that the USA was self-serving in being the last to ground the 737-MiniLav...

While another group gripes that the grounding was uncalled for and based only on hysteria.

Do we have pilots being really stupid?

OR

Do we have a stupid design?

OR

Is it some totally fuzzy gray mixture?

OR

Is there some strong truths ALONG with the fuzzy gray?

OR

Some light truths and some strong truths among the fuzzy gray?

OR

Should we all wait for the final reports?
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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby Gabriel » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:12 pm

Most interesting times...

You hint that the USA was self-serving in being the last to ground the 737-MiniLav...

While another group gripes that the grounding was uncalled for and based only on hysteria.

Do we have pilots being really stupid?

OR

Do we have a stupid design?

OR

Is it some totally fuzzy gray mixture?

OR

Is there some strong truths ALONG with the fuzzy gray?

OR

Some light truths and some strong truths among the fuzzy gray?

OR

Should we all wait for the final reports?
Can I tick more than one option, like, all of them?

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby 3WE » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:47 pm

Stealing directly from there, but Bobbie's buddy implies that the MCAS system was "installed" with no notification...

I can't believe there was ZERO notification...UAS happens...stuff breaks and the wire from the airspeed to the noseover logic unit ought to be listed somewhere...but, could it really be "near zero" grossly quiet...again UAS happens...

Curtains? I dunno...but looking really bad for stock prices and some scapegoats.
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FAO: Gabiee...your recent comment [i]there[/i]

Postby 3WE » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:11 pm

Do we have pilots being really stupid? OR Do we have a stupid design? OR Is it some totally fuzzy gray mixture? OR Is there some strong truths ALONG with the fuzzy gray? OR Some light truths and some strong truths among the fuzzy gray?
Can I tick more than one option, like, all of them?
You need to post here what you posted there. Your "thoughts of the last few hours" where you focused on the insidious message that maybe we have stalled and need to lower the nose...

...that subtle shift away from a stupid crew to something a reasonably competent, well-meaning crew MIGHT JUST GET DUPED into...(Yes, suddenly I'm a bit more sympathetic to the crew). :?

Still, somewhere around 1000 feet, I'm going to try to pull up...I know that you say you won't because you want to crash with roll authority...
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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby Gabriel » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:55 pm

One user over there said, with sarcasm, that the MCAS performed its function flawlessly since after all neither plane stalled.

To which I wondered if the pilots knew that the plane did not stall, as the same false too-high AoA information that triggered the MCAS supposedly should trigger the stickshaker too. And I tried to picture a cockpit where you have just had UAS, the stickshaker is shaking, and the plane is pitching down by itself. Sure, other cues would indicate no stall (healthy attitude, plane able to maintain altitude and climb, no mushy ailerons, and a trim wheel wanting to spin by itself trimming nose-down all the time). But I can imagine that such an overload of incorrect, confusing, and even contradictory information, may overwhelm the pilots' cognitive function.

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby Gabriel » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:15 pm

Confirmed, both Lion AIr flights (the one previous to the crash and the crash one) had stickshaker shaking from rotation throughout most of the flight.

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby 3WE » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:54 pm

One user over there said, with sarcasm, that the MCAS performed its function flawlessly since after all neither plane stalled.

To which I wondered if the pilots knew that the plane did not stall, as the same false too-high AoA information that triggered the MCAS supposedly should trigger the stickshaker too. And I tried to picture a cockpit where you have just had UAS, the stickshaker is shaking, and the plane is pitching down by itself. Sure, other cues would indicate no stall (healthy attitude, plane able to maintain altitude and climb, no mushy ailerons, and a trim wheel wanting to spin by itself trimming nose-down all the time). But I can imagine that such an overload of incorrect, confusing, and even contradictory information, might, in rare-but-not-rare-enough instances overwhelm well trained, intelligent pilots cognitive function- especially since we are all the time pontificating against relentless pull ups.
Fixed?

Note: The blue font is only somewhat sarcastic.
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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby J » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:45 pm

WN's CEO discusses the grounding of their 737Max fleet. While agreeing with the FAA decision he notes,

Our experience with the MAX, along with the other U.S. operators, has been phenomenal. We've operated over 40,000 flights covering almost 90,000 hours. There is a ton of data collected, which we continuously monitor. In all our analysis since our first flight in 2017, nothing has presented any flight safety concerns. It has been a superb addition to our fleet.
https://www.southwestaircommunity.com/t ... ba-p/88174

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:35 pm

A very critical article in the Seattle Times...............

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/
......never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. – John Donne

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:20 am

and now....
The US government has ordered a review of the way Boeing's 737 Max aircraft got its licence to fly.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47633085
......never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. – John Donne

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby 3WE » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:43 pm

The Flyover News reports a 3-billion quarterly loss for Boing.

Curtains?...at least for some employees (middle management and working types)?

Some of the local folks seem a tad unhappy with the environment there.

Aren't we overdue for a Chinese airliner?
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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby Not_Karl » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:04 am

The Flyover News reports a 3-billion quarterly loss for Boing.

Curtains?...at least for some employees (middle management and working types)?

Some of the local folks seem a tad unhappy with the environment there.

Aren't we overdue for a Chinese airliner?
Just wait for Boeing to be acquired by Huawei.
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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby ocelot » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:41 am

Foxconn.

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby J » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:33 pm

Here is an article discussing maintenance practices for the stored planes and WN's assessment that it will take 120 hours / plane to restore its fleet to service.

Excerpt:

How Airlines Are Defending Dormant 737 MAX Jets From The Ravages Of Corrosion, Insects And Time

Boeing 737 MAX planes have been stuck on the ground now for five months. With the likelihood rising that they won't return to service before the winter, some airlines may soon have to deal with the danger that the planes could literally become stuck to the ground.

Tires of planes that are parked for long periods of time can freeze to the tarmac during subzero weather, warns a Boeing maintenance manual for the previous generation of 737 aircraft. It advises maintenance workers to place sand or a coarse fiber mat under the tires and covers over the wheels and brake assemblies to protect them from the corrosive effects of rain and snow.

With the end of summer drawing closer, Air Canada is considering moving its 24 737 MAX planes south to the gentler climes of a desert storage yard, a spokesperson told Forbes. WestJet says it’s content to keep its 13 planes in Canada, spooling up the engines every week and taking them for a spin on the apron around their hangars.

Airlines have had 387 MAX planes sitting quietly at airports and storage facilities around the world since March, when the second of two horrific crashes led aviation authorities worldwide to ground Boeing’s best-selling plane. Boeing is storing roughly another 200 that it has assembled but can’t deliver.
* * *
Planes at a storage yard typically get visited at least once a day to make sure the exterior coverings are intact, says Querio.

The 737 manual lays out a schedule of maintenance procedures to be done at regular intervals that’s heavy on lubrication of myriad parts.

Every week the plane should be scanned for corrosion; every two weeks, electrical systems powered up for two hours. Every 30 days the plane should be moved a third of a wheel’s turn, to prevent the tires from getting flat spots; carpets and seats checked for mildew; and water drained from the sumps of fuel tanks to prevent growth of bacteria or fungi, which can have the consistency of mayonnaise and plug fuel filters.

Every 90 days, the flaps, rudder and other control services need to be exercised.

If the grounding extends to a year, the landing gear may need to be flexed, says Zemanovic, with the plane propped up on giant jacks placed under the wings and the nose. Boeing and Airbus recommend that some models should be restored to operating condition after a year before being shut down again, says Querio.
* * *
A Southwest spokesman said that once the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration declares the model airworthy, the airline expects it will take 120 hours of work on each plane to get them ready to fly again, and 30 to 60 days for the airline’s whole fleet.

One giant task: cleaning the planes. Dust can collect inside planes stored in the desert if the doors are vented, requiring a thorough vacuuming, says Zemanovic, and if the storage facility doesn't have a concrete wash pad with drains to properly dispose of large amounts of soapy water, workers may have no choice but to wipe down the plane by hand, a laborious process that he says could require a “couple hundred” man hours. Two necessities for the job: 27-foot high work platforms and a mammoth supply of cleaning wipes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyboga ... 4f701e619

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby Sickbag » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:02 am


Every 90 days, the flaps, rudder and other control services need to be exorcised
Corrected.
TRUMP: in-presidency structural break-up
within 96 months...

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Gabriel has become a columnist with a surname

Postby 3WE » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:56 am

Very lengthy article on the ‘MAX, discussing corporate function, profits, cost cutting, wheeling and dealing and modern management that avoids expertise.

Where is the elusive middle ground? Profits are needed, compromises must be made, is MCAS pure evil, or just a painful, sad mistake?

I don’t pretend it’s as simple as a teevee or Evanie rant.

Interesting read- albeit LONGER than a Gabe post.

https://newrepublic.com/article/154944/ ... n=sharebtn
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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby elaw » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:03 pm

Wow... I haven't finished reading the article yet but even the first few paragraphs are scary.

It's funny, I work at a small company where over half the employees are engineers and I bet if you asked them if we need a union here, every single one would answer "no" or "why?". I wonder if Boeing engineers being unionized is just a large-company phenomenon, or because they treat them so badly.

The article definitely reminds me of a saying I heard once: "Most successful companies are successful *in spite of* how they're run, and not *because of* how they're run."
HR consultant, Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc.

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby 3WE » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:53 pm

What I don't like in modern management is the LOVE of outsiders TO THE DETRIMENT OF INSIDERS.

I get it that you get fresh ideas, and that "because we've always done it this way" is SOMETIMES bad...and "new ways of thinking" are important for success.

But often, "we've always done it THIS way" is because "doing it THAT way" has bad effects.

But instead of using the new folks for new insight, they tend more to be used to bulldoze serious amounts of genuine expertise and wise input.
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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby elaw » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:34 pm

Very similar to that is the belief that "new and different" always equals "better".

I work in the IT field where that attitude is pervasive, especially on the programming side of things. There's a new tech out every 15 minutes and if you don't know and use it you're worthless. I've actually seen employment ads asking for 3 years of experience in a technology that had only been out for two years!
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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby Gabriel » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:20 am

Very similar to that is the belief that "new and different" always equals "better".

I work in the IT field where that attitude is pervasive, especially on the programming side of things. There's a new tech out every 15 minutes and if you don't know and use it you're worthless. I've actually seen employment ads asking for 3 years of experience in a technology that had only been out for two years!
The other side of the coin is that you also see employment adds asking for 10 years of experience in a technology that was deemed obsolete 20 years ago, but because there are systems running on them and these systems still need maintenance, new functionalities, etc, this people is needed and very few of the ones that have 3 years of experience in the technology launched 2 years ago are also experienced in the oldies, so the few (and fewer every year) guys out there who are make really good money.

I don't know where the companies will get experts in Fortran or UNISYS in 15 years, when the last ones who worked it are retired or dead.

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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby elaw » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:52 am

I hear you on that one! I've got a cousin who lives near Hartford CT and makes a very good living programming in COBOL for an insurance company. He tells me they have zero interest in updating their systems.

I totally understand the philosophy of "stick with what works", but sometimes you have to face up to the fact that newer tech works too and it's time to let go of the old stuff.
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Re: 737 Max troubles;:The latest news...

Postby ocelot » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:54 am

Although trying to roll out new stuff to replace old stuff that was still kinda working has a dismal success record, about like VFR into IMC...


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