Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

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Peminu
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Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Peminu » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:07 pm

The fastest way to disembark VIP passengers.

Unfortunately, and now with sarcastic mode off, there was a fatal victim of this accident.

http://avherald.com/h?article=422a16dc&opt=0

Another accident where apparently throttles don't want to respond to pilot's input.
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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Gabriel » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:56 pm

Amazing how the wing separated from the fuselage.

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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Sir Gallivant » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:19 am

Sarcastic mode on, but title is wrong should be 'Plane reached it's parking spot in the VIP lounge'
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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Peminu » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:25 am

Sarcastic mode on, but title is wrong should be 'Plane reached it's parking spot in the VIP lounge'

Thank you galant Gallivant for the correction. As you may know I am not an English speaker and appreciate all those lessons (and I am sincere).

But this time I would like to start again a discussion about why this new aircraft that don't have a direct command to the throttles are failing. I think that the Brasil (TAM) thread was lost thanks to Mr. CK. (By the way, final report has recently been published on this accident). But there is also the link to the accident of that beautiful 0 miles Airbus that was destroyed during engine test.

This accident (the one that originated this thread) was not related to an Airbus, but a Canadian (or am I wrong?) flying machine.

Let's start with this question (hoping that expert members on the kind of aircraft can help opening our ignorance):

IS THERE A RELATION BETWEEN CRJ'S AND AIRBUS THROTTLE CONTROLS?
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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Gabriel » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:59 am

I'm not an expert on this (or any) kind of aircraft, just your usual parlour talker, but still...

TAM:
I'll start asking you for a link to the final report.
A little background: The plane was flying with the #2 reverser MELled. The MEL calls for deactivating the reverse in the cockpit AND mechanically locking the reverser, and to land as usual (at 20ft idle both throttle levers, upon touchdown set reverse on both throttle levers only that on the MELled engine the reverser will never activate).
But the pilot did not idle both thrust levers at landing (only on the #1 engine, the #2 lever was set at the "climb" setting where both levers had been left since early in the flight), which is one of the conditions to meet the "ground mode" criteria.
With the airplane actually on the ground but still in "air mode", several things went awfully:
- The autobrakes didn't activate (not a big deal since the pilot applied maximum brake with the pedals)
- The spoilers didn't deploy (big deal, since with the airplane with full flaps and no spoilers there is little weight on the wheels, hence little traction with the runway, hence little braking action).
- The autothrust, which was still on, tried to keep the programmed speed (approach speed) and increased the thrust on the #2 engine (the #1 engine had been set to max reverse by the pilot). The autothrust applies all the thrust it needs up to the setting of the thrust lever, which was in climb for the #2 engine.
- Net result: too little deceleration and high speed overrun.
Let's see what the final report says, but it seems that the main fault was that of the pilot who failed to idle both thrust levers at landing. Why did that happen? My opinion, with the info that was available back then, is that the pilot didn't know the right procedure. There was a time when a couple of accidents happened because the pilot applied max reverse on an engine, the engine increased its "power" but the reverser failed to deploy, thus generating high forward thrust instead of high reverse. Because of that, there was a time when the procedure with a MELled reverse was not to set reverse on that engine. But to increase safety and avoid mistakes the design was changed so as the engine will not increase its power when reverse is commanded until some sensors actually detect that the reverser is deployed. So the procedure was changed to "never mind which reverser is MELled, or if none or one or both, you just apply reverse in both engines (just be aware that the thrust will remain at forward idle where the reverser is MELled).
So the pilot had the old book in his head. The copilot even warned him just before landing. "#2 reverser out of service". Thoughts don't get recorded on the CVR, but my guess is that the pilot must have thought "I must be sure I do not apply reverse on that engine, or we'll get forward thrust and we'll overrun the runway" (which was wrong, of course). And he got so focused on not applying reverse on #2 that he overacted and didn't even touch that thrust lever, neither during the flare when he idled the #1 engine nor after touchdown when he applied reverse on #1 nor during the landing roll when the plane was failing to slow down.
Another fault must have been at the airline training. Because this pilot didn't apply the correct procedure, yes, but also because the procedures used by different pilot were inconsistent. In the previous two landings with this very plane, where the reverser was already MELled, one pilot didn't apply reverser at all on neither engine and another pilot applied reverse on both levers (which is what the procedure calls for). So three procedures in three landings?
Finally, let's see what are the findings regarding the airplane automation: One one hand, it's difficult to imagine why the airplane would keep in "air" mode with all three wheels on the ground (struts compressed and wheels spinning), max brakes applied, and one engine set at max reverse. On the other hand, one thrust lever was set at climb thrust, a very high setting that could mean that the pilot wants to go around, so one can understand that the airplane couldn't resolve the conflicting inputs and simply couldn't make a decision to change from air to ground modes (which is not the same than deciding to remain in air mode). And another thing that I personally don't like is that the autothrust doesn't move the throttles levers (Boeing autothrottles do). If the #2 thrust levers would have started moving forward after touchdown I think there was a good chance that one of the pilots had detected it.
Except for the last line, I see no link between this accident and the fact that there is a computer (FADEC) between the levers and the engines (or as you've said, no direct command). For the record, all new Boeing have FADEC too, even if the autothrottle does move the throttle levers.

A340 against the blast fence:
This is an easy one: The procedure called for testing two engines at a time and to have chocks put on the wheels. They tested all 4 engines at once without chocks. And to make things worse, they didn't reduce thrust when the airplane started to move. Direct control or not had absolutely nothing to do.

This accident:
We have very little information yet even to parlor-talk. At a point the article mentions "jammed throttle levers". Not sure if they mean the the levers were actually mechanically blocked or what.

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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby reubee » Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:01 am

Sarcastic mode on, but title is wrong should be 'Plane reached it's parking spot in the VIP lounge'


This accident (the one that originated this thread) was not related to an Airbus, but a Canadian (or am I wrong?) flying machine.

Let's start with this question (hoping that expert members on the kind of aircraft can help opening our ignorance):

IS THERE A RELATION BETWEEN CRJ'S AND AIRBUS THROTTLE CONTROLS?
I was thinking of an incident involving an Eclipse ...
Following a windshear encounter on final approach, the pilot applied full throttle using enough force against the forward stops to exceed the design throttle position signal maximum range. The associated fault mode held the engine thrust settings at the last known throttle position, which was maximum.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enDocument
Image

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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Peminu » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:55 pm

I'm not an expert on this (or any) kind of aircraft, just your usual parlour talker, but still...

TAM:
I'll start asking you for a link to the final report.

Sorry for the delay answering Gabriel, but I was away of computers for the weekend.

The link is here:

http://www.cenipa.aer.mil.br/cenipa/pag ... RF3054.pdf

It is writen in Portuguese, but I guess that you will have no problems reading it.
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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Gabriel » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:59 am

Thanks. I'll give it a try.
Would an English version be released?

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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:21 am

But this time I would like to start again a discussion about why this new aircraft that don't have a direct command to the throttles are failing.
Actually, you can end this discussion here and now (Gabriel's dissertation notwithstanding). The thrust levers on the CRJ100/200 are directly connected to the engines. Frankly, I'm not buying this story for a second. The idea of both thrust levers and both fire switches failing is Schlossberg-type sci-fi.
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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Peminu » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:56 am

But this time I would like to start again a discussion about why this new aircraft that don't have a direct command to the throttles are failing.
Actually, you can end this discussion here and now (Gabriel's dissertation notwithstanding). The thrust levers on the CRJ100/200 are directly connected to the engines. Frankly, I'm not buying this story for a second. The idea of both thrust levers and both fire switches failing is Schlossberg-type sci-fi.

Well, thanks for clarifying this and that is why I put in my first intervention the question with capital letters, because I didn't know if the controls were directly connected.

But let's now especulate and parlor talk:

Years ago I witnessed a car accident where the driver was parking the car and when seeing a pedestrian on the rear view mirror pushed the throttle instead of the brake pedal. Results were bad. Do you (asking to all, not only FB) think this was a similar case?
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Gabriel
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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Gabriel » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:07 am

Actually, you can end this discussion here and now (Gabriel's dissertation notwithstanding). The thrust levers on the CRJ100/200 are directly connected to the engines. Frankly, I'm not buying this story for a second. The idea of both thrust levers and both fire switches failing is Schlossberg-type sci-fi.
Well, my dissertation was intended to discredit the case for the other accidents that Peminu cited as reference, and not this accident itself. But yes, the point is moot with the info you bring.

Just out of curiosity, how is the connection between the levers and the engine realized? Is it mechanical? Or electronic (albeit without a FADEC)? Or...?

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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:26 pm

Just out of curiosity, how is the connection between the levers and the engine realized? Is it mechanical? Or electronic (albeit without a FADEC)? Or...?
On CRJ100/200 models there's not even FADEC, it's all mechanical.
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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Princess Leia » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:34 pm

if only there were some type of parachute that could be deployed in case of emergency, then this would have all turned out well.
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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Gabriel » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:49 am

Just out of curiosity, how is the connection between the levers and the engine realized? Is it mechanical? Or electronic (albeit without a FADEC)? Or...?
On CRJ100/200 models there's not even FADEC, it's all mechanical.
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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby Marc 1 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:03 pm

if only there were some type of parachute that could be deployed in case of emergency, then this would have all turned out well.
That or the pilots needed to be shaved.

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Re: Plane reached it's parking spot in front of the VIP lounge

Postby MZK490-1 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:37 am

That or the pilots needed to be shaved.
Just so long as they don't do it in the cockpit and overshoot their destination.
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