The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

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IntheShade
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby IntheShade » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:22 am

Hi Bert I am happy to see you here because I consider you one of the few who know what is going on.

When I first discovered www.internet.com I was told to be careful because it was like the wild wild west. I soon discovered this is wrong. www.internet.com is much more like a pillow fight; lots of fluff and very little substance.

You need to remember this when addressing anyone here. This is an example of how you engage someone on the topic of KAL007:

"The other day I was in Heathrow Airport and while in a secure area shop I bought a Kuasabi 1/400 scale model of a Korean 747 in the old livery which reminded me of the KAL007 shootdown!"

It's like getting into a hot tub. You've just eased them into the topic on comfortable terms.

Bert--as you know I myself have done alot of research into KAL007 and I also feel a terrible crime, injustice, murder has bee covered up. It is still a topic I am keenly interested in although I feel there is little hope of the real truth ever being made known.

Although we both differ slightly on the mechanics of the shootdown there is no doubt that innocent civilians were used to bait the Russians into military action. I am also convinced the Japanese along with the Koreans were heavily involved.

Very few people who think they know about KAL007 only know "USA Today" deep about what really happened. It's a shame because it also coinsides with teh underpinnings of the US Govt. starting to come apart.

Video games, MTV, Hollywood, young black rappers, decay of the education system have numbed the monds of this country to the point that they believe the slock that is spoon fed to them until the point I am convinced that a orchestrated mass deception is afoot. I am happy every time I see someone push it aside for undeniable truth.

Keep up the good work Bert and do not let the hecklers bother you. They are usually to uninformed to even have a clue how off base they really are and let me know if I can help. It is a topic filled with mystery and intrigue.

But be aware: It's all I can do to try and keep a few of these people safe around airplanes.
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:05 am

IntheShade, good to hear from you again. You've always been an encouragement to me to go on ahead. Will take heed to your words. I really don't get provoked by the hecklers. The real caution for myself is not go along "for the fun" and not to get diverted by responding - to nothing. The important thing is to try to answer real questions and to learn from real comments. And I have learned!
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Sickbag » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:02 pm


"The other day I was in Heathrow Airport and while in a secure area shop I bought a Kuasabi 1/400 scale model of a Korean 747 in the old livery which reminded me of the KAL007 shootdown!"
I think you will find they stopped making that particular model in 1998.
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby IntheShade » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:14 pm


I think you will find they stopped making that particular model in 1998.
You have always been nothing but fluff:

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Sickbag » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:34 am


You have always been nothing but fluff:

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Maybe , but I I know the truth





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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby IntheShade » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:21 pm




Maybe , but I I know the truth





]

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:43 am

I have just posted the following on the KAL 007 wikipedia article. It shows that the order to down KAL 007 came from some of the top echelons of the Soviet military, and not as had been surmised by many, by a "trigger -happy" lower officer. The same with Soviet rescue missions. Transcripts are culled from Russian Federation handover of Soviet recordings of military communications of shootdown and aftermath.

Soviet Command Hierarchy of shootdown

The Soviet real-time military communication transcripts of the shootdown suggest the chain of command from the top general to Major Osipovich, the SU-15 interceptor pilot who shot down KAL 007. In reverse order, they are Major Gennadie Osipovich, Lt. Colonel Titovnin, Combat Control Center - Fighter Division; Lt. Col Maistrenko, Smirnykh Air Base Fighter Division Acting Chief of Staff, who confirmed the shootdown order to Titovnin, Titovnin: You confirm the task?, Maistrenko: Yes; Lt. Col. Gerasimenko, Acting Commander, 41st Fighter Regiment. Gerasimenko (to Gen Kornukov): Task received. Destroy target 60-65 with missile fire. Accept control of fighter from Smirnikh; Gen. Anatoli Kornukov, Commander of Sokol Air Base - Sakhalin. Kornukov (to Lt. Col. Gerasimenko): I repeat the task, Fire the missiles, Fire on target 60-65. Destroy target 60-65...Take control of the MiG 23 from Smirnikh, call sign 163, call sign 163 He is behind the target at the moment. Destroy the target!...Carry out the task, Destroy it!; General Valeri Kamenski, Commander of Far East Military District Air Defence Forces. General Kornukov (to Military District Air Defence Forces headquarters-Gen. Kamenski): "...simply destroy [it] even if it is over neutral waters? Are the orders to destroy it over neutral waters? Oh, well.; Gen. Ivan Moseivich Tretyak, Commander of the Far East Military District . "Weapons were used, weapons authorized at the highest level. Ivan Moiseevich authorized it. Hello, hello.”, “Say again.”, “I cannot hear you clearly now.”, “He gave the order. Hello, hello, hello.", “Yes, yes.”, “Ivan Moseivich gave the order, Tretyak.”, “Roger, roger.”, “Weapons were used at his order.”

Here is foto Gen. Tretyak - http://www.rescue007.org/rescue.htm
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby blueblack » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:36 am

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby blueblack » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:54 am

- ohhh shuuuuut upp flyebouok2389 and no- half bottle you will not have sex in 2010-or very litlle-sorry-but thats the way it is

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:01 pm

New. The all source composite transcripts of the stalk, shootdown of KAL 007, and long concealed within 1/2 hour Soviet "rescue" mission to Moneron http://www.conservapedia.com/All_Transc ... n#See_Also
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby PurduePilot » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:49 am

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:52 pm

I suppose it's not surprising that Bert, a man of faith by trade, would accept a premise as preposterous as the Moneron scenario on sheer faith.
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby blueblack » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:46 pm


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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:20 pm

It is not so much a matter of faith. The "Moneron" scenario is not my invention. It is all there in the transcripts. Do you believe that the transcripts do not have "Moneron?" Or perphaps, the transcripts that the Russian Federation supplied are not authentic? If so, what is your basis? I do go on Faith- in matters of Jesus Christ. Here is not required faith. Just adequate appraisal of source material. I can see no other interpretation from the transcripts except that within 1/2 hour of the shootdown, despite the Soviet denial, the Soviets sent helicopters, KGB patrol boats, and civilian trawlers that were in the vicinity to 3 1/2 X4 1/2 mile Moneron Island, the last point that they had located KAL 007 descending slowly, as Osipovich told Gen Kornukov, in spirals. The Soviet deception in this matter has already been acknowledged in their own sources, as presented to the world By Boris Yelsin in 1992, and the Soviet naval deception in pretending to search for the black box while they already had it in their own possession as been acknowledged by the Russian Federation Deputy Director of the Russian State Archives of Recent History. I cannot find any fault in what I have presented and in the very real likelihood of survivors to the KAL 007 shootdown.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Shorrick Mk2 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:56 am

I can see no other interpretation from the transcripts except that within 1/2 hour of the shootdown, despite the Soviet denial, the Soviets sent helicopters, KGB patrol boats, and civilian trawlers that were in the vicinity to 3 1/2 X4 1/2 mile Moneron Island, the last point that they had located KAL 007 descending slowly, as Osipovich told Gen Kornukov, in spirals.
You mean they sent resources to the suspected location of a plane crash? I'd say that is hardly shocking to begin with. We still don't have the transcript of the luggage being evacuated piece by piece from the hold through the E/E visit hatch, do we?

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:30 pm

Shorrick Mk 2, do not be offended about the luggage. This is a way I have as a layman to find out things that experts know.
To the meat of what you are getting at - "You mean they sent resources to the suspected location of a plane crash? I'd say that is hardly shocking to begin with." As you have expressed it, it is not shocking. In reality's context, it is shocking.
Here the reality:
1. The Soviet's immediate denial that they knew where the plane went down, which denial continued for years into Russian Federation times, when in 1992, and in 2003, not only was the deception acknowleded, but also the reason for it - the Black Box tapes which the Soviets had recovered and concealed from the West do not support the assertion that the Soviets were then furthering, namely, that KAL 007 was on an espionage mission.
2. "The suspected location" is not suspected any longer now, and, in fact, never was by the Soviets. They repeatedly called it in the real-time transcripts made public by the Soviets in 1992, "Moneron Island".
3. The "assets" ordered to Moneron, KGB coastal boats, helicopters, and civilian trawlers, were ordered within one half hour of missile detonation, and of course, much less after the post-detonation flight of KAL 007 to Moneron and its spiral descent.
4. Moneron Island is but a tiny island 3 1/2 by 4 1/2 miles in extent

Yes, definitely shocking to begin with, and still should be to those aware.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Gabriel » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:20 pm

Bert, we discussed this long before.

Ok, the Soviets shot down the plane.
Ok, the plane did not explode in pieces in the air.
Ok, the plane maybe descended in a somehow controlled fashion (or maybe that spiral was not so controlled after all).

Do you realize that from there to have a heavily damaged 747 (the cut of the CVR and the loss of hidraulics are not good sympthoms) performing a survivable emrgency ditching/landing at/near a desolated island and having the Rusians finding survivors, capturing them, and keeping them alive for years in secrecy, there is a long, long run?

A lot of paths lead to the passengers being dead:
- The eventual crash-landing (if there was one) could be not-survivable (highly liked).
- The initial survivors (if there were any) might have preished before help arrived due to injury, smoke inhalation, burns or drowning.
- The Russians might have found survivors and killed them right away.
- The Russian might have taken prissioners, interogated them, and then killed them.
- The Russians might have kept prissioners for a few years and later killed them.
- The prisioners might have died in jail due to age, illness, or bad tratments from the Russians.

Finally, why would Russia keep prissioners even today?
Not to keep the secret, or they would have never released the info about the operation in the first place.

I'm sorry to say this again, but the chances that one of the passengers is alive is as close to zero as it can be.

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby 3WE » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:48 pm

Ok, the Soviets shot down the plane.
Ok, the plane did not explode in pieces in the air.
Ok, the plane maybe descended in a somehow controlled fashion (or maybe that spiral was not so controlled after all).
Ok, the Russians dispatched a search (and rescue?) team to the site of the crash. (Not sure about the rescue- but I would expect them to send a large investigative team- to hopefully find any shred of proof that the plane could be suspected of acting hostile activity).
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:32 pm

Gabriel,
Just a quick one before I leave for ten days. All hydraulics were not out. No evidence of damage to system No. 4. ICAO report notes that there is no explanation for both CVR and DFDR stopping at same second, and not prior to termination of flight and no cause apparent (If the full extent of tapes, that is, the tapes extending as long as the flight did, what they would have shown is what the Soviets saw on their screens according to what they said of which we have the transcripts - KAL 007 leveling out at 16,424 ft., flying at that altitude for almost 5 minutes, and then circling over Moneron and descending slowly (according to Maj. Osipovich) until they had reached at least 1,000 ft, the point under which Soviet radar could not track). Can give references in report.

The possibilities. When there is no personal relationship, slim possiblities need not be explored, and are not. When loved ones are involved, possibilites are explored intensively. I am not faulting others for not not pursuing as I would fault myself if I did not.

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Gabriel » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:54 pm

Bert,

Is the ICAO report available on-line?
And you didn't answer the last question of my previous post.

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Shorrick Mk2 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:35 am

Shorrick Mk 2, do not be offended about the luggage. This is a way I have as a layman to find out things that experts know.
To the meat of what you are getting at - "You mean they sent resources to the suspected location of a plane crash? I'd say that is hardly shocking to begin with." As you have expressed it, it is not shocking. In reality's context, it is shocking.


Actually, even in reality's context, it is not shocking. Sending a rescue team to a crash site is a standard procedure. Even more so when you believe you may have shot something by mistake. As to the USSR not admitting to a mistake - I don't know what planet you live on but you'll be hard-pressed to find the USSR actually admitting in public to having done anything wrong from 1917 till break-up. The party is never wrong, comrade.

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Sickbag » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:09 pm

Have you seen mysterious orange lights in Skegness?

MYSTERIOUS formation of orange lights in the sky has been the subject of much speculation in letters sent to the Standard.
Susan Jeffery's letter published in the last edition of the Standard asked whether any other readers had seen balls of orange light in the sky following the thunder storms on Saturday, June 5.

Susan was at the Chase Caravan Park in Ingoldmells when she noticed the unidentified lights and more readers have come forward with similar descriptions of lights in the sky in that area.

Susan wondered whether the balls may have been meteors whereas others have attribute it to a rare weather phenomenon.
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:00 am

Just a quick one before I leave for ten days.
No worries, Reverend, we can wait.
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:38 pm

To answer - as far as I know the ICAO '83 and '93 reports are not on-line.

About What could be known about Russia in these Russian Federation days, no one knew, until "Amnesty International" and "Human Rights Watch" and Russian human rights activists made known, that up to, at least, 2002, there were Soviet style concentration and forced labor camps operating in the Soviet Union where up to 30,000 North Korean dissidents and regular citizens were working to pay off N.K. debts of billions to the both the Soviet Union and the Russian Federation, and that these camps were guarded by Russian and North Korean guards and that there were summary executions http://www.conservapedia.com/KAL_007_Su ... _of_Russia . Our lack of awareness could be just that - lack of awareness.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Shorrick Mk2 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:45 am

Bert I read your supposedly "CIA" study - and I have found it hilarious.
More importantly, how can airborne pilots tell the nationality of the passengers of the airliner?
Indeed, what is the percentage chance that an airliner operating a flight between the US and Korea would carry at least one US citizen?
During this rapid descent, KAL-007 made a spiral track on Soviet radar. But this type of rapid, controlled descent is fully consistent with standard flight procedure in case of sudden decompression
Maybe one of the resident airline pilots would like to enlighten us whether an emergency descent does indeed include spiralling as a "standard flight procedure".

PS. That "report" isn't really CIA, is it?


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