The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

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Bert Schlossberg
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:57 am

No. the report is not a CIA report. It is, according to its own inner description on page 43, a Republican Staff Study. That is, the 1991 study (draft) of the Minority Staff (Republican) of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. But it was presented to the Korean National Assembly by opposition member Sonn-se-Il, who referred to it as a CIA document and that was picked up by reporters,including Reuters, and so for a while was known as a CIA Report. I refer to it according to its self reference or else, to connect with its history, I refer to it as the CIA/Republican Staff study of 1991, or, sometimes, simply as the "CIA" Republican Staff Study. Staffers of the Committee on Foreign Relations confirmed to me that it was the study commisioned by ranking member of the Minority Staff, Sen. Jesse Helms. Timothy Meiers refers to it in his article in Insight Magazine, whose chief editor, significantly, is Jim Lucier, who was staff director under Helms on the Committee on Foreign Relations during the time in question. Lucier, for understandable legal reasons, does not reveal much about his time on the Committee. His successor, Admiral Bud Nance, reported that the CIA had indeed substantiated part of the claims supporting survivors sent from Israel as consenant with what the CIA knew. Here is the history - http://www.rescue007.org/faq.htm#8 . Just a further note - The CIA coordinated responses of NSA and other intelligence agencies in response to the request from Helms and so, most probably, the easy appelation Sonn se il give sreport as CIA is understandable.

I think that the Intelligence report of page 47 of the Report is cogent and compelling - At a time prior to any idea that KAL 007 was shot down, Soviet ground station report to each other that Soviet planes are reporting that Americans have been killed and they, the ground stations express regret that it was not a RC 135 that was downed and now they would be blamed for killing Americans. The analysis continues. How could Soviet pilots know that Americans had been killed? They could know that it was a Boeing 747 by its hump as the plane might be floating on the water, and they could see the bird on the tail, the logo at the time, and know that it was a South Korean passenger plane that had been downed, but the only way that they could have known that Americans had been killed is if they had received transmissions to that effect from the Passenger plane on the water, or from raft radio transmissions, or from transmissions from Soviet ships that had come to the scene.
See - http://www.conservapedia.com/KAL_007_on ... a_sighting

By the way, some of the secondary support is no longer in doubt. Since 1996 (N.Y. times interview), the Soviet interceptor pilot, Gennady Osipovich, reversed his previous story, and now admits that it was a passenger plane that he knew he was shooting down. Another note - since the handover of 1992 transcripts, it can no longer be maintained that KAL 007 made a swift spiral descent. Osipovich reports to Gen Korunukov in the transcripts that his last view of KAL 007 (and the last that has been communicated anywhere), is the KAL 007 was descending slowly.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

Bert Schlossberg
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:30 pm

Dear people,
I thought to write to you the following because it is sometimes thought that people that involved themselves in these matters do so from base motives or are dilletants. This is not so. Here is something about the man involved in the research that eventually made its way to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. I think by now that you know me and can overlook my personal references. This is just the way it was and just the way I express myself.

Sometimes, pain can only be "managed" by going through it, and there are different kinds of pain, to be sure. But we know that pain will not have the final word, and there will come a day, when every tear shall be wiped away. We know One who for the joy set before him, and for our sakes, despised the shame which he endured on our behalf - Jesus the Savior.

Avraham Shifrin, was Soviet major and chief criminal investigator for the Krasnador area of the Crimea who, on his own word, sent many to the Gulags. But strangely enough, it was the criminal element he sent, rather that the political dissidents,. This was because Avraham himself was a dissident, and more precisely, an espionage agent, again his own admission, for both Israel and the U.S. This stemmed from his hatred for communism and what communism had done to his father, a Jew who was executed by the Soviets because he was a Jew. As a son of an "enemy of the state", Avraham had been drafted into a penal battalion to fight the Germans. He was given no weapon, and when he asked where his gun was, he was told, "In the hand of the enemy. Go get it". You can see something of a reenactment of this sort of thing in the "Enemy Within" starring Jude Law. Avraham was wounded twice, and, finally found a way out of the penal battalion. He escaped from the hospital, changed his name, and worked himself up, as I said, reaching the status of Major and chief prosecutor for Krasnador, and then his spying being found out, he was sent to the Gulag himself, and sentenced to death after years of hard labor. Just before his execution, his chief prosecutor and KGB head, Lavrenti Beria himself was executed and Avraham was sent instead to exile in Siberia. But while in interrogation, first in Lubyanka prison Moscow, and then in KGB Military prison in Lefortovo, also in Moscow, he was made to stand in freezing water in winter up to his knees. Eventually, he was released after 17 years of this torture of Gulag and exile, and let free to go wherever. The wherever was Israel, where I met him. Exie and I and the children had settled on the hill opposite his research center in Jerusalem and we met the man who at that time, from his debriefing immigrants to Israel who had been in the Soviet military, was receiving reports that Korean Air Lines Flight 007 shot down by the Soviets in 1983 and which had among its 269 passengers,my wife Exie's father and cousin, had made a successful water landing, and the Soviets had abducted the people and the vaunted black box which would tell all. We had moved as immigrants to Israel and found ourselves right next to the only man in the world who then believed that our people were alive. So, I began to learn from him, and in a certain way to become part of this movement of rescue, which has not ended.

In Israel, Avraham was one legged, having had a leg amputated because of standing in freezing waters. I had seen him many times wincing. Eleanora, his wife, had this to say about Avr
aham and his pain. "Avraham was in pain much of the time. Both legs hurt him- the one that was and the one that wasn't" , and, "When his legs were hurting, Avraham would reply, 'I'm okay'. When the pain was absolutely unbearable, he would say, 'It hurts.'"

Avraham, an orthodox Jew, once told me that the only time he had any peace during his gulag days was when Pentecostals in prison, in his hearing, would sing to God in tongues.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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monchavo
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby monchavo » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:18 am

Is this some extraordinary extended process of public grieving?
Is this a mania - the last thing to hold onto before descending into complete madness?
You obviously have some extraordinary drive to try to evangelise
your belief that the received wisdom on KAL007 is not what you think happened.


Bert - please, get some help - get some therapy - find peace through some means other than
these horribly corrosive internet forums. The people here do not care - and you will only be the
subject of obbroprium.


The problem is : nobody cares as much as you do - and you're barking at the wrong trees.

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:36 pm

Is this some extraordinary extended process of public grieving?
Is this a mania - the last thing to hold onto before descending into complete madness?
Probably a little of both.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Shorrick Mk2 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:46 pm

I think that the Intelligence report of page 47 of the Report is cogent and compelling
Ahh, sorry, no. Not unless we have a different understanding of the words "cogent" and "compelling".
- At a time prior to any idea that KAL 007 was shot down,
An idea that was pretty clear from the beginning as Mr. Ossipovich himself seems to admit.

Soviet ground station report to each other that Soviet planes are reporting that Americans have been killed and they, the ground stations express regret that it was not a RC 135 that was downed and now they would be blamed for killing Americans. The analysis continues. How could Soviet pilots know that Americans had been killed? They could know that it was a Boeing 747 by its hump as the plane might be floating on the water, and they could see the bird on the tail, the logo at the time, and know that it was a South Korean passenger plane that had been downed, but the only way that they could have known that Americans had been killed is if they had received transmissions to that effect from the Passenger plane on the water, or from raft radio transmissions, or from transmissions from Soviet ships that had come to the scene.
Or probably soviet pilots figured out that a passenger plane originating from the US *might* have a marginally more than zero percentage chance to have US citizens aboard.
By the way, some of the secondary support is no longer in doubt. Since 1996 (N.Y. times interview), the Soviet interceptor pilot, Gennady Osipovich, reversed his previous story, and now admits that it was a passenger plane that he knew he was shooting down.
Oh really? So the whole hulabaloo about someone who'd have to see the plane floating on the water to realise it was a civilian airliner and rescue the passengers to figure out their nationality might have been just.... uhmmm... hulabaloo?

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:12 am

Monchavo and Flyboy,
It's neither extended grieving nor mania prior to descent into madness. And I will stop communicating on the forum, until something new to offer, if there is no substantive return. Thanks for your interest
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby blueblack » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:09 pm

I don`t think it`s right to delete opnions-my last saying were a video from D-a d --why whas that deleted?

My

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby blueblack » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:20 pm


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flyboy2548m
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:41 pm

And I will stop communicating on the forum, until something new to offer, if there is no substantive return...
You see, Bert, in order to get substantive return, one has to first offer substantive...oh, never mind, who cares?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:25 am

Dear People,

Today is the 27th year of the shooting down of KAL 007 and, as we believe, the abduction by the Soviets of its survivors.
Of course the passing of time makes a difference - but not to certain people, for the most part unknown to one another, not to those who have survived, and
not to His seeing eye which embraces all things for all times.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Sickbag
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Sickbag » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:51 am

...and
not to His seeing eye which embraces all things for all times.[/b]

Yes, Stalin was indeed a GREAT man.
TRUMP: in-presidency structural break-up
within 18 months...

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monchavo
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby monchavo » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:49 am

Dear People,

Today is the 27th year of the shooting down of KAL 007 and, as we believe, the abduction by the Soviets of its survivors.
Of course the passing of time makes a difference - but not to certain people, for the most part unknown to one another, not to those who have survived, and
not to His seeing eye which embraces all things for all times.

Bert - are you out there?

The Wikipedia entry on KAL 007 is in rude health, I stumbled upon it today. Have you reviewed it?

Bert Schlossberg
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:17 am

WHY KAL 007 WAS NOT WARNED: FINALLY, THE REASON OUTED

Why was Korean Air Lines Flt. 007 carrying 269 occupants including 22 children under the age of 12 years and Congressman Larry McDonald not stopped that fateful day Sept. 1, 1983 when the Soviets shot it down? Why was it not warned it was about to enter into restricted Soviet territory, especially in the light of the U.S. government acknowledgment that there was a U.S. reconnaissance plane in the area, and in light of the fact that the crew of that plane knew the danger KAL 007 was increasingly confronting as it flew deeper to the shores of Soviet Kamchatka?

Now, we finally know. This article will bring it out for the first time.

The Background:

August 31/September 1, 1983 was the worst possible night for KAL 007 to “bump the buffer” for a complexity of reasons—all of them ominous. It was but a few short hours before the time that Marshal Ogarkov, Soviet Chief of General Staff, had set for the test firing of the SS-25, an illegal mobile Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM). The SS-25 was to be launched from Plesetsk, the launch site in northwest Russia which was used for test firing of solid fuel propellant ICBMs—24 minutes later to land in the Klyuchi target range on the Kamchatka Peninsula * **. Kamchatka, was also home to a nuclear submarine base, and a number of military airfields and military installations. KAL 007 was flying straight into a highly sensitive area bristling with weaponry!

Prior to his appointment as Marshal of the Soviet Union and Chief of the General Staff, General Ogarkov had been Chief of the Main Operation Directorate of the General Staff and, as such, had begun and had directed the Strategic Deception Department, or “Maskirovka,” which was charged with hiding Salt 2 violations from United States intelligence. On August 31/September 1, Soviet aerial “jammers”,under Maskirovka, were sent aloft to prevent United States intelligence eyes and ears from obtaining the illegal SS 25’s telemetry data.

And indeed, United States intelligence eyes and ears were wide open and unblinking that night—an RC-135 Boeing 707 reconnaissance plane was “lazy eighting” off the Kamchatka peninsula coast electronically “sucking in” emissions. Exactly which emissions the 707 was collecting depended on which of two versions of the RC-135—code-named “Rivet Joint” and “Cobra Ball,” respectively— happened to be deployed that night. Rivet Joint, based at Eielson Air Force Base south of Fairbanks, Alaska, was furnished with cameras, SLAR (side-looking radar) and an array of advanced electronic equipment designed to eavesdrop on in-the-air and on-the ground conversations, locate and decipher radar signals, “spoofing”17 (i.e. simulating electronically and otherwise near intrusions of the border thus turning on Soviet radar stations), and tripping and recording the enemy’s “order of battle.” Cobra Ball, based on Shemya Island on the tip of the Aleutian Island chain, similarly equipped as the Rivet Joint 707 but with much more apparatus, stayed far from the borders of the Kamchatka peninsula waiting for the precise moment of an Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles reentry in order to capture the missile’s telemetry signals.

Rivet Joint and Cobra Ball were both under the command of the Air Force’s Strategic Air Command (SAC), but the personnel operating the electronic equipment were signal intelligence specialists of the Electronic Security Command (ESC) under the authority of the National Security Agency (NSA). The NSA was charged with the responsibility of gathering and deciphering “raw” intelligence data. This raw data was collected from super sensitive apparatus aboard aerial platforms such as the RC-135, as well as from land collection stations such as that on Wakkanai on the northernmost Japanese Island of Hokkaido The raw intelligence data then underwent preliminary analysis at various collection platforms and stations, and then, in the Far East, were beamed 23 thousand miles up to a geosynchronous satellite (one whose orbit around the world was correlated with the rotation of the earth around its axis in such a way that it remained continually “motionless” over a designated portion of the earth). From this satellite, the raw data was beamed to the NSA facility at Pine Gap, Australia, and from there relayed to to other stations, including the key satellite/transmission station at Strategic Air Command (SAC) headquarters at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska, and then Fort Detrick and finally on to Fort Meade, Maryland. At Fort Meade, home of the National Security Agency, the data was further analyzed and then distributed to various intelligence services of the United States government.

The collection stations and platforms around the world operated in an on-spot evaluation of the critical nature of the raw material they collected and analyzed. An evaluation of highest priority was called a “Critic Report.”

Informant 1:

"A Critic is the highest intelligence report that intelligence agencies can issue. It is sent at Flash precedence, which literally overrides anything else on the net. A ground station cannot override a Critic. One of its criteria is that it has to come to the attention of the highest command authorities within ten minutes, preferably less. The president would have known about it almost immediately after NSA got the report. The aircraft commander would also have been notified of this. The RC-135 would have been diverted, within fuel limits, to get closer to the action. He could have sent out a Mayday on the emergency frequencies, 121.5 MHz and 243.00 MHz. If the RC-135 had been aware of it, ground stations all around the world would also have been aware of it, as well at the National Sigint Operations Center at NSA. The airliner would have been notified."

It is almost certain, then, that United States intelligence agencies, poised that night to receive all that the Soviets emitted, were in position to follow KAL 007’s incursion into the Soviet buffer zone 200 Kilometers off Kamchatka. In fact, they were charged to do so. The RC-135 would have seen Kamchatka’s radar positions “light up” one after another and would have heard the chatter at dozens of command posts. James Bamford, author of The Puzzle Palace and an expert on the operations of the United States National Security Agency explains: “The RC-135 is designed for one purpose—it’s designed for eavesdropping... There’s almost no way that the aircraft could not have picked up the indications of Soviet activity: Soviet fighters taking off, Soviet defense stations going into higher states of readiness, higher states of alert.”

Informant 2:

An RC-135 airman who flew back to Anchorage, Alaska, from Shemya Island with the RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft crew after they had returned to Shemya base from their surveillance at Kamchatka's borders tells what was told to him by the crew. The answer to the question is in the affirmative. They were aware of KAL 007, and they did know that it was entering harm's way. When they had returned to their base on Shemya, KAL 007 had already departed Kamchatka's airspace but had not yet entered Sakhalin's airspace where the attack would occur. There was still time enough! Here are the words of this airman- his statement, my questions, and his responses.
"Tonight I watched the History Channel special about KAL 007. One part that could not help but stick in my gut was the statement that the RC 135 may not have been aware of 007 because as the former Cobra Ball pilot said they were using downward looking radar. That may have been true, but that night I was waiting on the ground for that RC to land so I and the crew that was on board the aircraft mentioned on the special could fly back to Eielson AFB. I was friends at the time with a number of the aircrew members in the back of the aircraft who when questioned as to why they were so late and pale as sheets answered, "Watch CNN when you get back". These guys were specifically Russian linguists and analysts, so it was apparent they had knowledge of what had happened."

My request for clarifications -

1. Would it have been possible, or likely, that these people had tracked (radar, other means?) KAL 007 while the flight crew itself of the RC-135 not have been aware of 007's intrusion? This seems hardly likely to me but I wanted to get your take on this.

2. Did the linguists and analysts say anything about where 007 was when it was observed? Was it heading for Russian airspace? Was it ALREADY in Russian air space?

3. Was it on Shemya that you boarded the plane with the RC-135 crew for your flight back to Eielson AFB?...

The airman's response to my request -

1. The RC-135 platform listens to every comm coming out of an area. But it's all of the guys sitting in the back. The actual flight crew may not have known anything.

2. These guys only said, "Watch CNN when you get home". They have to be very tight-lipped about what goes on, but understood that we knew what their capability was in the air, so simply saying that shouted to me that they knew what happened.

3. Yes, I rode a training RC down to Shemya with the weekly replacement crew to complete some business. I had to wait quite a time for the crew on the mission to return, but when they did, they were as white as ghosts from what they had heard. I re-boarded the training RC with them to return to our home base of Eielson....

The Outage:

But the warning Critic Report about the danger KAL 007 would encounter may well have been sent. If so if would have to go through the AN/FSC/78 (V) satellite communications station at Strategic Air Command head quarters at Offutt Air Force Base near Omaha, Nebraska. But at almost the exact time ** that KAL 007 was entering the heavily survaillanced prohibited-to-civilian aircraft U.S. North American Aerospace Defense (NORAD) flying zone and on its way straight to Russian Kamchatka there was outage affecting the transmission unit which would have carried that Critic Report with its warning on to the desired destinations. We get the following information from an airman on the communications floor of the satellite communications station:

Informant 3:

"I immediately knew the problem had to be transmitter, receiver or antenna so the next place I went was to the transmitter room. Here you have to understand we had what they called hot switch over redundant transmitters. In other words if one went down it should have automatically swapped to the other...

"it had not happened and both transmitters were offline. I knew something had happened to the one that had been online so I brought up the other transmitter to get the link up. I needed to both see..the links were coming back up and notify the Defense Communications Agency controller at the Pentagon and my all distant end terminals what had happened before I started looking at the transmitter that had dropped...

"the phone rang on the main console...Up to this point everything was just like every other outage I had seen before or after. Compared to some it was a very short outage as well. When I answered the phone it was already the DCA controller on the line. I will not say getting a call from them rather than over the order wire was unheard of but I only other had it happen to me in my whole career was in ... So you can see this was a little unusual....

"We got everything back up and we went back to look at the transmitter ... To this day I do not know why it dropped or why it did not switch although had it happen there and at other places once in a blue moon also. Before we got through looking the transmitter over I got called to the floor again. It was from the Pentagon again and it was a colonel ...He basically ask me for all the information I had given the DCA controller which I responded to almost word for word. ...

"Anyway I told him we were in the act of troubleshooting to find out what had happened and if we found a problem we would do whatever was required to get it operational at that time. ...

"After checking all readings on the transmitter nothing was out of specs. ... We were less than ten minutes down at the time but I can't remember how much. We have had two calls from the Pentagon already....

"..there is no telling how many links after the transmit and receive terminals so the time to link back up from one distance end to the other could have easily doubled or even tripled the outage time...

"We got the transmitter up and as I said never found out what happened. There was another call from the colonel who I had to tell we had no RFO (reason for outage) but would continue to monitor the transmitter closely and no reason for the lack of a hot swap. He did not sound happy but there was nothing else I could give him... The DCA controller also called back rather than asking on the order-wire [the usual way of communication. Editor]. I gave him my final report on the whole situation and finally asked if he wanted me to swap back to the original transmitter since we were supposed to be on that one. He said absolutely not. That more than anything else makes me think something was going on and whatever it was was important."

What was the reason for the outage? The airman informant at first could not say except wondered if there was a possibility of sabotage - only a possibility. But another military informant who had intimate knowledge of this event and of this particular installation had another assessment. His was that sabotage was more than a possibility. It was a probability. But after time, reflection and realization, both came to another conclusions - the outage could only have come about by sabotage and that from the inside!

Our informant 3. again:

"If the RC 135 had transmitted a Critic Report, even with the outage at the satellite communication terminal there should have been a query to the RC 135 to re-transmit the report and even a backup system to the satellite terminal going down. Unfortunately more things likely went wrong that day. It has been almost thirty-four years. It is time for the United States government to say what it knows. Barring that, there are individuals out there who do know what happened. You may have been military service or civilian personnel fighting the cold war with the U.S.S.R. in the area this occurred or in Alaska at the time. You may have been at S.A.C. headquarters at Offutt, AFB in Nebraska. You may have been at the Pentagon in at the Defense Communications Agency (now the Defense Information Systems Agency) or some other agency. You may have been at NSA at Ft. Mead, Maryland. You may know where information that was kept by these agencies that may pertain to this event may have been stored. You had a reason to keep quiet when you did. Fortunately the war you were fighting is long over. No one on either side of that war woke up that morning and said to themselves “I am going to kill a plane load of civilians today.” Instead it appears to have been a perfect storm of aggression, errors, mistakes equipment failures, and maybe more. If you know something or even suspect you might know something to add to this narrative please do as other sources have done and contact someone who is capable of informing those involved in the ongoing investigation of this matter. Your identify can be protected. No information is too small or unimportant."

If the RC 135 had transmitted a Critic Report, and if there had been no outage at the satellite communication terminal, KAL 007 would have had plenty of time to have been warned and escaped the following about 2 -2 1/2 hours later:

17:53 - First documented order for shootdown

General Anatoli Kornukov, commander of Sokol Air base on Sakhalin to the command post of General Valeri Kamenski, Commander of Air Defense Forces for the Soviet Far East Military District : "...simply destroy [it] even if it is over neutral waters? Are the orders to destroy it over neutral waters? Oh, well."

(for the complete real time transcripts of the shoot down of KAL 007, read here http://www.conservapedia.com/KAL_007:_S ... ranscripts

Notes:

* The SS-25 was in violation of the SALT II agreements on three counts: 1. It was a new kind of ICBM (the first mobile one ever launched). 2. Its telemetry was encoded and encrypted. When a test ICBM reentry vehicle approaches the target, it emits vital data relating to its velocity, trajectory, throw-weight, and accuracy by means of coded (symbolized) and encrypted (scrambled) electronic bursts, which are then decoded and decrypted by Soviet on-ground intelligence gathering stations. 3. The missile as a whole was too large for its reentry vehicle (dummy warhead), raising suspicion that the missile was being developed for new and more advanced warheads than allowable.

** Informant: "I am 100% sure the outage was no earlier than 9 am and more likely after 10am. I am 100% sure we were completely through with all paperwork by 11:15 AM"

My response: "The time fits in perfectly. You say that the outage began no earlier that 9 am and more likely after 10 am. That was the time at your satellite terminal in Nebraska. Well, KAL 007 entered the Soviet buffer zone (which is 200 kilometers from the coast of Kamchatka) at 15:51 GMT = 3:51 PM. 3:51 PM would be 10:51 AM in Nebraska (5 hour difference). This fits in with Your understanding that the outage began "more likely after 10 am" [It also means, since "all paper work ..through by 11:15 AM" that if the RC-135 had sent the Critic Report warning message, it must have been shortly after KAL 007 was seen to have crossed over into the prohibited Soviet buffer zone.B.S[/img][/img].]
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

Bert Schlossberg
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:28 am

WHY KAL 007 WAS NOT WARNED: FINALLY, THE REASON OUTED

Why was Korean Air Lines Flt. 007 carrying 269 occupants including 22 children under the age of 12 years and Congressman Larry McDonald not stopped that fateful day Sept. 1, 1983 when the Soviets shot it down? Why was it not warned it was about to enter into restricted Soviet territory, especially in the light of the U.S. government acknowledgment that there was a U.S. reconnaissance plane in the area, and in light of the fact that the crew of that plane knew the danger KAL 007 was increasingly confronting as it flew deeper to the shores of Soviet Kamchatka?

Now, we finally know. This article will bring it out for the first time.

The Background:

August 31/September 1, 1983 was the worst possible night for KAL 007 to “bump the buffer” for a complexity of reasons—all of them ominous. It was but a few short hours before the time that Marshal Ogarkov, Soviet Chief of General Staff, had set for the test firing of the SS-25, an illegal mobile Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM). The SS-25 was to be launched from Plesetsk, the launch site in northwest Russia which was used for test firing of solid fuel propellant ICBMs—24 minutes later to land in the Klyuchi target range on the Kamchatka Peninsula * **. Kamchatka, was also home to a nuclear submarine base, and a number of military airfields and military installations. KAL 007 was flying straight into a highly sensitive area bristling with weaponry!

Prior to his appointment as Marshal of the Soviet Union and Chief of the General Staff, General Ogarkov had been Chief of the Main Operation Directorate of the General Staff and, as such, had begun and had directed the Strategic Deception Department, or “Maskirovka,” which was charged with hiding Salt 2 violations from United States intelligence. On August 31/September 1, Soviet aerial “jammers”,under Maskirovka, were sent aloft to prevent United States intelligence eyes and ears from obtaining the illegal SS 25’s telemetry data.

And indeed, United States intelligence eyes and ears were wide open and unblinking that night—an RC-135 Boeing 707 reconnaissance plane was “lazy eighting” off the Kamchatka peninsula coast electronically “sucking in” emissions. Exactly which emissions the 707 was collecting depended on which of two versions of the RC-135—code-named “Rivet Joint” and “Cobra Ball,” respectively— happened to be deployed that night. Rivet Joint, based at Eielson Air Force Base south of Fairbanks, Alaska, was furnished with cameras, SLAR (side-looking radar) and an array of advanced electronic equipment designed to eavesdrop on in-the-air and on-the ground conversations, locate and decipher radar signals, “spoofing”17 (i.e. simulating electronically and otherwise near intrusions of the border thus turning on Soviet radar stations), and tripping and recording the enemy’s “order of battle.” Cobra Ball, based on Shemya Island on the tip of the Aleutian Island chain, similarly equipped as the Rivet Joint 707 but with much more apparatus, stayed far from the borders of the Kamchatka peninsula waiting for the precise moment of an Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles reentry in order to capture the missile’s telemetry signals.

Rivet Joint and Cobra Ball were both under the command of the Air Force’s Strategic Air Command (SAC), but the personnel operating the electronic equipment were signal intelligence specialists of the Electronic Security Command (ESC) under the authority of the National Security Agency (NSA). The NSA was charged with the responsibility of gathering and deciphering “raw” intelligence data. This raw data was collected from super sensitive apparatus aboard aerial platforms such as the RC-135, as well as from land collection stations such as that on Wakkanai on the northernmost Japanese Island of Hokkaido The raw intelligence data then underwent preliminary analysis at various collection platforms and stations, and then, in the Far East, were beamed 23 thousand miles up to a geosynchronous satellite (one whose orbit around the world was correlated with the rotation of the earth around its axis in such a way that it remained continually “motionless” over a designated portion of the earth). From this satellite, the raw data was beamed to the NSA facility at Pine Gap, Australia, and from there relayed to to other stations, including the key satellite/transmission station at Strategic Air Command (SAC) headquarters at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska, and then Fort Detrick and finally on to Fort Meade, Maryland. At Fort Meade, home of the National Security Agency, the data was further analyzed and then distributed to various intelligence services of the United States government.

The collection stations and platforms around the world operated in an on-spot evaluation of the critical nature of the raw material they collected and analyzed. An evaluation of highest priority was called a “Critic Report.”

Informant 1:

"A Critic is the highest intelligence report that intelligence agencies can issue. It is sent at Flash precedence, which literally overrides anything else on the net. A ground station cannot override a Critic. One of its criteria is that it has to come to the attention of the highest command authorities within ten minutes, preferably less. The president would have known about it almost immediately after NSA got the report. The aircraft commander would also have been notified of this. The RC-135 would have been diverted, within fuel limits, to get closer to the action. He could have sent out a Mayday on the emergency frequencies, 121.5 MHz and 243.00 MHz. If the RC-135 had been aware of it, ground stations all around the world would also have been aware of it, as well at the National Sigint Operations Center at NSA. The airliner would have been notified."

It is almost certain, then, that United States intelligence agencies, poised that night to receive all that the Soviets emitted, were in position to follow KAL 007’s incursion into the Soviet buffer zone 200 Kilometers off Kamchatka. In fact, they were charged to do so. The RC-135 would have seen Kamchatka’s radar positions “light up” one after another and would have heard the chatter at dozens of command posts. James Bamford, author of The Puzzle Palace and an expert on the operations of the United States National Security Agency explains: “The RC-135 is designed for one purpose—it’s designed for eavesdropping... There’s almost no way that the aircraft could not have picked up the indications of Soviet activity: Soviet fighters taking off, Soviet defense stations going into higher states of readiness, higher states of alert.”

Informant 2:

An RC-135 airman who flew back to Anchorage, Alaska, from Shemya Island with the RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft crew after they had returned to Shemya base from their surveillance at Kamchatka's borders tells what was told to him by the crew. The answer to the question is in the affirmative. They were aware of KAL 007, and they did know that it was entering harm's way. When they had returned to their base on Shemya, KAL 007 had already departed Kamchatka's airspace but had not yet entered Sakhalin's airspace where the attack would occur. There was still time enough! Here are the words of this airman- his statement, my questions, and his responses.
"Tonight I watched the History Channel special about KAL 007. One part that could not help but stick in my gut was the statement that the RC 135 may not have been aware of 007 because as the former Cobra Ball pilot said they were using downward looking radar. That may have been true, but that night I was waiting on the ground for that RC to land so I and the crew that was on board the aircraft mentioned on the special could fly back to Eielson AFB. I was friends at the time with a number of the aircrew members in the back of the aircraft who when questioned as to why they were so late and pale as sheets answered, "Watch CNN when you get back". These guys were specifically Russian linguists and analysts, so it was apparent they had knowledge of what had happened."

My request for clarifications -

1. Would it have been possible, or likely, that these people had tracked (radar, other means?) KAL 007 while the flight crew itself of the RC-135 not have been aware of 007's intrusion? This seems hardly likely to me but I wanted to get your take on this.

2. Did the linguists and analysts say anything about where 007 was when it was observed? Was it heading for Russian airspace? Was it ALREADY in Russian air space?

3. Was it on Shemya that you boarded the plane with the RC-135 crew for your flight back to Eielson AFB?...

The airman's response to my request -

1. The RC-135 platform listens to every comm coming out of an area. But it's all of the guys sitting in the back. The actual flight crew may not have known anything.

2. These guys only said, "Watch CNN when you get home". They have to be very tight-lipped about what goes on, but understood that we knew what their capability was in the air, so simply saying that shouted to me that they knew what happened.

3. Yes, I rode a training RC down to Shemya with the weekly replacement crew to complete some business. I had to wait quite a time for the crew on the mission to return, but when they did, they were as white as ghosts from what they had heard. I re-boarded the training RC with them to return to our home base of Eielson....

The Outage:

But the warning Critic Report about the danger KAL 007 would encounter may well have been sent. If so if would have to go through the AN/FSC/78 (V) satellite communications station at Strategic Air Command head quarters at Offutt Air Force Base near Omaha, Nebraska. But at almost the exact time ** that KAL 007 was entering the heavily survaillanced prohibited-to-civilian aircraft U.S. North American Aerospace Defense (NORAD) flying zone and on its way straight to Russian Kamchatka there was outage affecting the transmission unit which would have carried that Critic Report with its warning on to the desired destinations. We get the following information from an airman on the communications floor of the satellite communications station:

Informant 3:

"I immediately knew the problem had to be transmitter, receiver or antenna so the next place I went was to the transmitter room. Here you have to understand we had what they called hot switch over redundant transmitters. In other words if one went down it should have automatically swapped to the other...

"it had not happened and both transmitters were offline. I knew something had happened to the one that had been online so I brought up the other transmitter to get the link up. I needed to both see..the links were coming back up and notify the Defense Communications Agency controller at the Pentagon and my all distant end terminals what had happened before I started looking at the transmitter that had dropped...

"the phone rang on the main console...Up to this point everything was just like every other outage I had seen before or after. Compared to some it was a very short outage as well. When I answered the phone it was already the DCA controller on the line. I will not say getting a call from them rather than over the order wire was unheard of but I only other had it happen to me in my whole career was in ... So you can see this was a little unusual....

"We got everything back up and we went back to look at the transmitter ... To this day I do not know why it dropped or why it did not switch although had it happen there and at other places once in a blue moon also. Before we got through looking the transmitter over I got called to the floor again. It was from the Pentagon again and it was a colonel ...He basically ask me for all the information I had given the DCA controller which I responded to almost word for word. ...

"Anyway I told him we were in the act of troubleshooting to find out what had happened and if we found a problem we would do whatever was required to get it operational at that time. ...

"After checking all readings on the transmitter nothing was out of specs. ... We were less than ten minutes down at the time but I can't remember how much. We have had two calls from the Pentagon already....

"..there is no telling how many links after the transmit and receive terminals so the time to link back up from one distance end to the other could have easily doubled or even tripled the outage time...

"We got the transmitter up and as I said never found out what happened. There was another call from the colonel who I had to tell we had no RFO (reason for outage) but would continue to monitor the transmitter closely and no reason for the lack of a hot swap. He did not sound happy but there was nothing else I could give him... The DCA controller also called back rather than asking on the order-wire [the usual way of communication. Editor]. I gave him my final report on the whole situation and finally asked if he wanted me to swap back to the original transmitter since we were supposed to be on that one. He said absolutely not. That more than anything else makes me think something was going on and whatever it was was important."

What was the reason for the outage? The airman informant at first could not say except wondered if there was a possibility of sabotage - only a possibility. But another military informant who had intimate knowledge of this event and of this particular installation had another assessment. His was that sabotage was more than a possibility. It was a probability. But after time, reflection and realization, both came to another conclusions - the outage could only have come about by sabotage and that from the inside!

Our informant 3. again:

"If the RC 135 had transmitted a Critic Report, even with the outage at the satellite communication terminal there should have been a query to the RC 135 to re-transmit the report and even a backup system to the satellite terminal going down. Unfortunately more things likely went wrong that day. It has been almost thirty-four years. It is time for the United States government to say what it knows. Barring that, there are individuals out there who do know what happened. You may have been military service or civilian personnel fighting the cold war with the U.S.S.R. in the area this occurred or in Alaska at the time. You may have been at S.A.C. headquarters at Offutt, AFB in Nebraska. You may have been at the Pentagon in at the Defense Communications Agency (now the Defense Information Systems Agency) or some other agency. You may have been at NSA at Ft. Mead, Maryland. You may know where information that was kept by these agencies that may pertain to this event may have been stored. You had a reason to keep quiet when you did. Fortunately the war you were fighting is long over. No one on either side of that war woke up that morning and said to themselves “I am going to kill a plane load of civilians today.” Instead it appears to have been a perfect storm of aggression, errors, mistakes equipment failures, and maybe more. If you know something or even suspect you might know something to add to this narrative please do as other sources have done and contact someone who is capable of informing those involved in the ongoing investigation of this matter. Your identify can be protected. No information is too small or unimportant."

If the RC 135 had transmitted a Critic Report, and if there had been no outage at the satellite communication terminal, KAL 007 would have had plenty of time to have been warned and escaped the following about 2 -2 1/2 hours later:

17:53 - First documented order for shootdown

General Anatoli Kornukov, commander of Sokol Air base on Sakhalin to the command post of General Valeri Kamenski, Commander of Air Defense Forces for the Soviet Far East Military District : "...simply destroy [it] even if it is over neutral waters? Are the orders to destroy it over neutral waters? Oh, well."

(for the complete real time transcripts of the shoot down of KAL 007, read here http://www.conservapedia.com/KAL_007:_S ... ranscripts

Notes:

* The SS-25 was in violation of the SALT II agreements on three counts: 1. It was a new kind of ICBM (the first mobile one ever launched). 2. Its telemetry was encoded and encrypted. When a test ICBM reentry vehicle approaches the target, it emits vital data relating to its velocity, trajectory, throw-weight, and accuracy by means of coded (symbolized) and encrypted (scrambled) electronic bursts, which are then decoded and decrypted by Soviet on-ground intelligence gathering stations. 3. The missile as a whole was too large for its reentry vehicle (dummy warhead), raising suspicion that the missile was being developed for new and more advanced warheads than allowable.

** Informant: "I am 100% sure the outage was no earlier than 9 am and more likely after 10am. I am 100% sure we were completely through with all paperwork by 11:15 AM"

My response: "The time fits in perfectly. You say that the outage began no earlier that 9 am and more likely after 10 am. That was the time at your satellite terminal in Nebraska. Well, KAL 007 entered the Soviet buffer zone (which is 200 kilometers from the coast of Kamchatka) at 15:51 GMT = 3:51 PM. 3:51 PM would be 10:51 AM in Nebraska (5 hour difference). This fits in with Your understanding that the outage began "more likely after 10 am" [It also means, since "all paper work ..through by 11:15 AM" that if the RC-135 had sent the Critic Report warning message, it must have been shortly after KAL 007 was seen to have crossed over into the prohibited Soviet buffer zone.B.S[/img][/img].]
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Not_Karl » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:00 am

Welcome back, Mr. Schlossberg! :D
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:27 pm

Good to see ya, Bert. Seems like not too much new information besides the supposed "outage". Also, whose article is it? Yours?
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:08 pm

My article. Thanks for the welcome, also thanks for the welcome from Not_Karl!
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:23 pm

My article. Thanks for the welcome,
I figured...

Since you're not naming these "informants", I have no way of knowing:

1. If they exist;
2. If they are who they say the are;
3. If they actually told you what you say they told you.

Also, your source for all that Rivet Joint protocol as regards interactions between SAC, ESC and NSA would be nice.
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:11 pm

KAL 007 Passengers taken Alive to Sakhalin!

Most Recently, a calling card, showing no water damage or stains which would have indicated that the card had come ashore through the waters, has come into the hands of an informant from the port city of Nevelsk on Sakhalin Island. This is the card of So J. Son, a passenger of KAL 007, shot down by the Soviets on Sept, 1, 1983 in the waters of the Tartar Strait near Moneron Island. Moneron is 41 nautical miles from Nevelsk. So J.Son is listed on the Manifest of Fight 007 as "Sohn So-Ja (showing that the transcriber was an American transcribing phonetically, B.S.), Mrs., Korea, seat 22 J". Sitting to the right of her, was most probably a member of her family, "Sohn Young-Ja, Korea, seat 22 K". The card shows Mrs. So-J. Son to have been the Executive Designer with the Young Jin Trading Co..

Further, though a firm called Young Jin Trading can still be located in Korea, and one location is in Seoul, the address and the phone number on the card are obsolete and the district of Sung Dong-Ku no longer exists.
They have long been gone. The card is at least 35 years old!

How, then, could this card of a KAL 007 passenger, with no sign of having been in water, ever have gotten to the city of Nevelsk? What other way can we think imaginable or probable, other than being bought to Nevelsk by boat or by rescue helicopters - we know were ordered to Moneron Island by the Soviets within minutes of KAL 007 having started its spiral descent around Moneron?

Let's consider first "by helicopter":

To KAL 007’s true position, Moneron Island itself, there were, indeed, at least two Soviet rescue operations sent out within minutes of KAL 007’s downing. These missions are documented in the Russian ground-to-ground telecommunications transcripts, and in view of the specificity of KAL 007’s location, and the smallness of the island (3 1/2 by 4 1/2 miles) there is no reason to doubt their success. The first mission involved rescue helicopters, border guards and the KGB, and was ordered at 6:47 A.M., just 21 minutes after missile impact and nine minutes after KAL 007 had reached point zero altitude, point zero being 1,000 feet altitude, when it went below radar—not when it landed or impacted!

Lt. Col. Novoseletski, Acting Chief of Staff, Fighter Division, Smirnykh Air Force Base, Sakhalin: (6:47 A.M.) You don’t have the sunrise there yet?

Lt. Col. Titovnin, Flight controller, Fighter Division Combat Control Center No, it will be in about thirty minutes.

Novoseletski:
Prepare whatever helicopters there are. Rescue helicopters.
Titovnin:
Rescue?
Novoseletski:
Yes. And there will probably be a task set for the area where the target was lost.
Titovnin:
Roger. Is this to be done through your SAR [Search and Rescue]?
Novoseletski:
Eh?
Titovnin:
Assign the task to Chaika through your SAR, Comrade Colonel, Khomutovo [Civilian and military airport at Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk City in southern Sakhalin] does not come under us and neither does Novoaleksandrovska. We have nothing here.
Novoseletski:
Very well.
Titovnin:
Novoaleksandrovska must be brought to readiness and Khomutovo. The border guards and KGB are at Khomutovo.

“Chaika” is the call sign of the Far East Military District (FEMD) Air Force Command Post. Consequently, this first documented rescue mission could only be effected by order of the FEMD, which was second in jurisdiction to the Soviet Far East Military Theatre of Operations. Neither the shooting down nor the rescue of Flight 007 was, therefore, of local decision.

Apparently, neither Smirnykh Air Force Base in central Sakhalin (under the Tactical Air Command and where the MiG23 ordered to guarantee destruction of KAL 007 was based) and Sokol Air Force base in southern Sakhalin (under the Air Defense Command where Osipovich and his SU-15 were based) had any available rescue helicopters. Therefore, the jurisdictional step up to the Far East Military District Air Force was required to bring the out-of-jurisdiction Khomutovo Air Base into action. Khomutovo was the civilian and military airbase at Yuzhno (Southern) Sakhalinsk City.

Let's now consider "by boat" as the means that the card and its carrier, Mrs. So J.Son, might have arrived at the Sakhalin port city of Nevelsk. Firstly, we need note that ships and boats as well as rescue helicopters had been ordered to Moneron:

This mission involved the civilian ships in the vicinity of Moneron as well as the Border Guard patrol boats and ships commanded by KGB General Romanenko*. It was ordered at 6:55 A.M.; just 29 minutes after missile impact and 17 minutes after KAL 007 had reached point zero, 1,000 feet altitude.

Gen. Strogov, General, Deputy Commander, Far East Military District: (6:54 A.M.)
Hello… Hello, Titovnin… You s... [obscenities] I’ll lock you up in the guard house. Why don’t you pick up the phone?
Titovnin:
Comrade General, everyone was busy here.
Strogov:
You have nothing there to be busy with. Busy! What kind of nonsense is that? So, where is Kornukov (General Anatoli Kornukov, Commander Sokol Air Force Base, Sakhalin)?
Titovnin:
Kornukov is here.
Strogov:
Put him on the phone.
Titovnin:
One minute. He is reporting to Kamenski (General, Commander, Far East Military District Air Force), Comrade General.

Here is clear evidence that the shoot-down of KAL 007 and the rescue of its passengers were not decisions made by local commanders but emanated from high echelons of the Soviet military.

Strogov: (18:55)
So, what you need to do now. Contact these ... [obscenities], these sailors, these, what do you ... [obscenities]?
Titovnin:
Border guards?
Strogov:
Huh?
Titovnin:
Border guards?
Strogov:
Well, the civilian sailors.
Titovnin:
Understood.
Strogov: Moneron Island. The border guards. What ships do we now have near Moneron Island, if they are civilians, send [them] there immediately.

But this mission was ordered after KAL 007 had descended to the waters, - though a very short number of minutes afterward. Yet there is clear evidence that ships were dispatched by the Soviets even prior to that, while both ship and land position radars were tracking KAL 007 to its ANTICIPATED site of its set-down. That is, they were sent to the site that the trajectory of the plane was shown on radar to be its set down or impact site:

That this Soviet naval rescue mission had been ordered even before KAL007 had reached the surface of the waters off Moneron is attested by the following - taken from the Izvestia testimony of a Soviet Naval Specialist who had been involved in the rescue mission: "When we learned that the aircraft had been attacked, and that weapons had been used, we began to analyse when it might possibly come down. Ships were ordered to the anticipated [emphasis added] area. Several ships headed there at once at full speed...".

In fact, KAL 007 had been tracked by Soviet radar from numbers of installations and these trackings which extended from prior to attack, through the attack phase, and on into KAL 007's descent onto the waters off Moneron were the basis why ships could be sent to the precise site of the set down even before the set-down.*

But is there any evidence that passengers and crew, including Mrs. So J.Son, could have been taken off the aircraft before it sunk, or had been sunk by the Soviets? The answer is Yes in the form of electronic intercepts by the U.S. of Soviet air controllers at the time of the shoot down:

According to the 1991 Republican Staff Study of the members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee chaired by Senator Jesse Helms, (”CIA” Report, “sensitive special intelligence”) the following was revealed: About four hours after the shoot-down, Soviet Air Defense command posts reported that Soviet pilots were saying that a civilian passenger plane had been shot down instead of a U.S. RC-135 reconnaissance plane, and that they (the command posts) were expressing regret, both that they had not downed the RC-135 and that now the Americans would accuse them of killing Americans.

The Study asks how, while flying overhead, could Soviet pilots conclude that Americans were among the passengers? They might conclude from seeing the aircraft’s distinctive hump as the plane floated on the water that it was a passenger plane that was shot down, as in 1983 there were no military versions of the Boeing 747. And they might have seen the distinctive bird emblem on the tail of the aircraft—the symbol in use then by Korean Air Lines—but this would not indicate the nationalities of the passengers. The Study would conclude that the only way Soviet pilots could know that Americans had been killed is if they had heard that information on their radios during the time the rescue was actually taking place.

“Thus the only way that Soviet pilots could possibly have known that the nationality of some of the KAL 007 passengers as Americans, from the air, would have been from possible emergency radio communications which U. S. Intelligence did not intercept, from either the stricken airliner ditched at sea, or from its life rafts, or from Soviet rescue boats.” (Republican Staff Study/”CIA” Report, pg. 47)

Further, two related reports emanating from the Israel Research Centre for Prisons, Psyche Prisons, and Forced Labor Concentration Camps of the U.S.S.R, headed by Avraham Shifrin, reported, based on eye witness informant information, that KAL 007 had been viewed on the water by fishermen off Moneron Island. People were standing on the wings, much like the passengers of US Airways Flight 1549, the "Miracle on the Hudson" with hand luggage with them. And the Research Centre's investigations in 1989 to 1991 determined that the passengers and crew of KAL 007 were taken, upon rescue, to the KGB Coast Guard base on Sakhalin.

And what could have been experienced by the Port of Nevelsk, the day that So J.Son was taken by "rescue" boat to its shore? This report has just come in from an informant who 35 years previous, on September 1, was in the office building facing the port who recounts the unusual activity within the building. If it took place in this building, it is reasonable to assume, the same activity took place in all the buildings facing the port and having a view of the waters beyond. It is this that the informant witnessed. The KGB came into the building and then proceeded hanging black curtains on all the windows, preventing them from looking out and seeing port and the bay. What activity was being concealed? It is not hard to understand that it would be the small fleet of KGB patrol boats, as well as the larger KGB vessels, with the civilian trawlers requisitioned for the purpose, all carrying KAL 007's passengers and crew and docking at the harbor.

Finally we need ask how actually the card had dropped from So J. Son's person. Did it come inadvertently out of her pocket or bag as she made her way or was assisted or forced up onto the dock? Was she jostled among the crowd of KGB guards and other passengers and the card with other articles came down scattered (and then taken by a resident 35 years later to wind up in the hands of the informer? Or did she intentionally drop it in the hopes that it become a mute but effective clarion some day, as it has now, to her plight? And what of the others with her, 269 passengers and crew members of KAL 007, including Congressman Larry McDonald and 22 children under the age of 12 years? What could they have dropped?

__________________________________________________________________________________________

*On Monday, September 26, 1983, a delegation of seven Japanese and American officials arriving aboard the Japanese patrol boat Tsugaru, met a six-man Soviet delegation at the port of Nevelsk on Sakhalin Island. KGB Major General A. I. Romanenko, the Commander of the Sakhalin and Kuril Islands frontier guard, headed the Soviet delegation.* Romanenko handed over to the Americans and Japanese, among other things, single and paired footwear. With footwear that the Japanese also retrieved, the total came to 213 men's, women's and children's dress shoes, sandals, and sports shoes. The Soviets said that all that they had retrieved, they had found floating in the water or washed up on the shores of Sakhalin and Moneron islands.

Family members of KAL 007 passengers would later state that these shoes were actually worn by their loved ones for the flight on that fateful night. Sonia Munder had no difficulty recognizing the sneakers of her children, one of Christian, age 14 and one of Lisi, age 17, by the intricate way her children laced them. (Sonia confirmed that her children were wearing these shoes when they boarded the flight). Another mother says, "I recognized them just like that. You see, there are all kinds of inconspicuous marks which strangers do not notice. This is how I recognized them. My daughter loved to wear them." And yet, another mother (and maybe it takes a mother!), Nan Oldham identified her son, John's, sneakers from a photo in Life magazine of 55 of the 213 shoes—apparently, a random array on display those first days at Chitose Air Force Base in Japan. "We saw photos of his shoes in a magazine," says Nan, "We followed up through KAL and a few weeks later, a package arrived. His shoes were inside: size 11 sneakers with cream white paint." John Oldham had taken his seat in row 31 of KAL 007 wearing those cream white paint spattered sneakers. He had just come from painting his suburban Washington, D.C., family home.
From an examination of the shoes in the photo of Life magazine, pairing the sets and counting them with the single shoes, and relating them to the whole, it turns out that the total amount of shoes retrieved account for 198 of the 269 people of KAL 007 - or almost 74% of the total.

Implications
The Soviets retrieved the shoes of some portion of this 74% of the flight's passengers, yet claimed not to have found one single body, not one person. This adds great weight to the question "Where are the bodies?" Either the shoes were on the bodies and removed by the Soviets (or the Japanese), or they were removed by the wearers and retrieved by the Soviets (or Japanese). Why were these shoes loose? Were they taken off in preparation for the landing or were they simply removed during the course of the flight? In either case, the one great question remains.

Is it really possible for so many shoes to be found and not one single person found to wear them? And if we should negate that the shoes were taken off in preparation for a ditching - that there was no time to do so, or the aircraft was in an exploded and too disintegrated condition to do so, then another question arises - If the non appearance of bodies is explained by their flesh being eaten by crabs, and, contrary to expert opinion, bones eaten by sea creatures, is it really credible, that not one of the 213 items of footwear had a foot, or a toe or a toe bone within it?

The Fate of Gen Romanenko
Note - Gen. Romanenko would meet a bad end due (according to the Republican Staff Report) to his handling of KAL 007 matters. The Republican Staff Study reports that he was probably sent to the Gulag himself. The Israeli Research Centre for Prisons, Psych-Prisons, and Forced Labor Concentration Camps of the USSR, resting on informant information reported, independently and prior to the Staff Study, that Romanenko's name no longer appears in KGB computers. (Once in, a person is noted as reassigned, deceased, retired, etc., but never deleted. It is as if Gen. Romanenko never existed). And finally, Hans Ephraimson-Abt, the head of the US families of the victims association, reports that while he was in East Germany at the Soviet embassy, he was informed by embassy officials that Gen. Romanenko, whom he had come to enquire about (he had not!), had committed suicide. Of course, each in its own time, could have been true.

**From the 1991 minority staff of Senate Foreign Affairs Committee Study (page 76):
"The new emigres also state that several Soviet air defense radar sites on the Soviet mainland opposite Sakhalin simultaneously tracked the gradual descent of KAL-007, and that these radars were able to pin point exactly where KAL-007 had successfully ditched at sea near Moneron. The emigres give precise identification of the local air defense commanders, precise locations, and the precise nomenclature of the types of radars involved, all of which seem consistent with existing U.S. Intelligence information. For example, then-lieutenant Valery Vladimirovich Ryzhkov was the duty officer the night KAL-007 went down at Radio Technical Brigade 1845 at the town of Zavet Ilyicha on the mainland coast. He personally tracked KAL-007 in its controlled descent to the water, and he was in communication with at least three other air defense radar sites [ie. town of Yedinka at maritime coast {B.S.}] and several Soviet KGB Border Guard boats which also tracked KAL007 in its controlled descent... This new emigre information is also consistent with Izvestiya, which states that: 'The coordinates of the region where the aircraft was shot down were known by the anti-aircraft defense.' Moreover, the emigres also report that Soviet small boats were immediately on the scene of KAL-007’s ditching, which is also consistent with U.S. Intelligence information.Image[/img]
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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flyboy2548m
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:20 am

By "calling card" you mean business card, I take it? If so, have you seen it personally and do you have a picture? Or did your "informant" swear you to secrecy on this as well? Also, what do you mean by "most recently"?

Also, to correct a FACTUAL error, there most definitely WERE military versions of the 747 in 1983.

BTW, I understand you live in Florida nowadays. I would love to stop by and chat with you about this over coffee or something.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Bert Schlossberg
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:50 pm

Flyboy, Photos of both items are on the third post down of facebook page KAL 007 Families and Friends. I can't post the photos on this page for some reason (can it be done?). I no longer live in Florida, but the coffee is good here in South Carolina. You are welcome!
P.S. I see the little icon for pictures above this posting area. I try to activate but nothing is uploaded from my computer. Can someone help?
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

Bert Schlossberg
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:00 pm

Second item of passenger of KAL 007 from Sakhalin port city of Nevelsk. Photo with signature of passenger Cam-il Y KAL 007 Manifest also on third post down of Facebook page KAL 007 Families and Friends
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:49 pm

Flyboy, Photos of both items are on the third post down of facebook page KAL 007 Families and Friends. I can't post the photos on this page for some reason (can it be done?). I no longer live in Florida, but the coffee is good here in South Carolina. You are welcome!
P.S. I see the little icon for pictures above this posting area. I try to activate but nothing is uploaded from my computer. Can someone help?


Where in South Cackalacky are you?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Bert Schlossberg
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:53 pm

I am in Washington D.C. area now but beginning in med December, I will be back in Ft, Mill. Fort Mill S.C. is about 20 minutes from Charlotte, N.C.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

Bert Schlossberg
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Re: The Shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:50 pm

New account of Soviet harassment efforts, from a naval officer on board the USS Badger in search for KAL 007
:

This just in - from a navel officer on the USS Badger in search for KAL 007.

This post details an incident part of the Soviet, now Russian Federation acknowledged( http://www.rescue007.org/TopSecretMemos.htm ) simulated hostile and harassing operations which we believe were intended to persuade the American led allied Search and Rescue mission, and the world, that the Soviets too were sincerely searching for KAL 007 - whereas they knew from day one exactly where the passenger jet had come down and where it was located.

This below related post details an incident - part of the Soviet, now Russian Federation acknowledged( http://www.rescue007.org/TopSecretMemos.htm - simulated hostile and harassing operations which we believe were intended to persuade the American led allied Search and Rescue mission, and the world, that the Soviets too were sincerely searching for KAL 007 - whereas they knew from day one exactly where the passenger jet had come down and where it was located.
The simulated but really harassing Soviet acts were part of the damage control and cover-up under the direction from day one of the shoot down of Marshal Varennikov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Varennikov, and 1991 Senate Committee on Foreign Relations report of Minority Staff under Sen.Jesse Helms). Passengers and crew of KAL 007 were already taken (day 1) to the Coast Guard station on Sakhalin, the Port city of Nevelsk being the place from which the 35 year old business card of KAL 007 Manifest passenger So-J. Son seat 22J, without water stain, and rental car document, signed, of Manifest passenger Cab-il Yu, seat 11A recently appeared. We believe that these two items, as well as other items which might now surface, had come to Sakhalin's port of Nevelsk, a distance of 41 nautical miles from Moneron, the site of KAL's spiral descent, by KGB boats under the command of General A.I. Romanenko, and other vessels bringing the passengers and crew and their personal belongings with them.

These two items may have been dropped on purpose, So - J. Son and Cab-il Yu wanting to signal their being alive on the Island. If items from two passengers of KAL 007 showed up at Nevelsk, we believe it likely that items belonging to other passengers will also show up.

The transport of the passengers and crew from plane to shore was effected by at least two missions as the real-time military transcripts indicate. The first Soviet mission to Moneron involved rescue helicopters, border guards and the KGB, and was ordered by Lt. Col. Novoseltski, Acting Chief of Staff, Fighter Division, Smirnykh Air Force Base at 18:47, just 21 minutes after missile impact and nine minutes after KAL 007 had reached point zero altitude, point zero being 1,000 ft. altitude when KAL 007 went below Soviet radar because of the curvature of the earth—not when it landed or impacted.

The second mission was ordered by Gen. Strogov, Deputy Commander, Far East Military District at 18:55; just 29 minutes after missile impact and 17 minutes after KAL 007 had reached point zero altitude. In addition to the above Soviet assets, civilian ships already near Moneron Island were ordered to Moneron itself. (http://www.rescue007.org/rescue.htm)


Here is the new account of Soviet harassment efforts, from a naval officer on board the USS Badger:

"At the time of the KAL-007 incident I was a senior petty officer and the officer in charge of the ships signal bridge and it's assigned crew of signalman on the USS Badger FF-1071. We were just about a day or two aways from completing a three week tour stationed off the coast of the Soviet Naval Base at Vladivostok when we received the message concerning the shootdown. We had been told to proceed to a position just off the west coast of Moneron Island, which is located itself off the southwest tip of Sakhalin Peninsula. As I recall we were ordered to a specific position within international waters and to commence upon arrival search and rescue (SAR) until otherwise ordered.

"We arrived the morning after the incident and were the first ship of any sort on scene for at least a day or two as I recall. Shortly afterwards, within a few days other ships, both US, Soviet, Japanese and Korean arrived on the station. The ship types and descriptions were extremely wide and varied, but most startling was the incredible numbers of ships that eventually turned out to operate in the within a very limited and compact search zone.

"We had a crew the Vladivostok operation that included Combat Photographers and Cryptographic specialists. Everyone was totally amazed at the scene. Within a 20 mile radius we counted over 40 allied ships and over 120 soviet vessels, some types which had not been seen by western forces in years. Distances between ships, while trying to conduct normal seakeeping operations were frequently around 500 feet. This was exacerbated by soviet ship attempts to apparently interfere/harass allied operations. I include here this paragraph from the article on KAL-007 from Wikipedia which I agree with.

'These missions met with interference by the Soviets,[69] in violation of the 1972 Incident at Sea agreement, and included false flag and fake light signals, sending an armed boarding party to threaten to board a U.S.-chartered Japanese auxiliary vessel (blocked by U.S. warship interposition), interfering with a helicopter coming off the USS Elliot (Sept. 7), attempted ramming of rigs used by the South Koreans in their quadrant search, hazardous maneuvering of Gavril Sarychev and near-collision with the USS Callaghan (September 15, 18), removing U.S. sonars, setting false pingers in deep international waters, sending Backfire bombers armed with air-to-surface nuclear-armed missiles to threaten U.S. naval units, criss-crossing in front of U.S. combatant vessels (October 26), cutting and attempted cutting of moorings of Japanese auxiliary vessels, particularly Kaiko Maru III, and radar lock-ons by a Soviet Kara-class cruiser, Petropavlovsk, and a Kashin-class destroyer, Odarennyy, targeting U.S. naval ships and the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter USCGC Munro (WHEC-724), USS Towers, escorting USS Conserver, experienced all of the above interference and was involved in a near-collision with Odarennyy (September 23–27)'

"Now as to the incident I initially referred to you. I've lost track over time of the exact date, but of course it can be located in the ships deck log in the national archives (or wherever it's kept), that toward the end of the operation we were assigned to stay close to a Japanese vessel that was trying to set up a datum buoy as part of establishing a new search area. A Nikolai Zubov class AIG (intelligence collection vessel) approached the area and kept trying to cut off the Japanese vessel from it's work. We were approximately 300 yds away from both ships. Our Commanding officer, Capt. John Schantz had informed the Officer in Tactical Commend (OTC) on the scene, who was located on the USS Sterrett some 15 miles away as I recall. In return he was told to hold his position and do whatever he could to prevent further interference from the N. Zubov.

"Apparently when the Zubov realized this, they positioned their vessel approx 200 yards away from ours and I observed them parade about a dozen men along the rails armed with AK-47s while another group uncovered what appeared to be a 40mm machine gun on the top deck and train it on our ship. I reported this to Capt Schantz, who immediately came up to the signal bridge to observe it for himself with the ships long distance binoculars for verification. He then reported the situation to the OTC, who, according to Capt. Schantz instructed him to put our crew at General Quarters without sounding the alarm, but by word of mouth as any alarm at that distance would have been heard by the Soviets and we wanted to avoid risking startling them in to action. He also said that our 5 inch forward gun mount was to be made ready for action, but not to train it in any direction. We were to take action in the form of a direct hit on the soviet ship only if they were to shoot first. However, at that distance we needed to back away some or risk unwarranted damage to ourselves.

"Someone ordered the Japanese vessel to clear the area, which they did and us and the. Thus began an "Old West Stare down" We held the positions and posture for two hours. It was very tense. Remember, there were about 150 ships within visual from us within a 20 mile radius. I always assumed at upper echelons, diplomats were trying frantically to defuse the situation. It also reminded me of the final scene from the movie The Bedford Incident (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOll3v55Dmo B.S.). We were well aware that one careless decision from either of us could have set off a chain reaction that no one knows where it might have ended. Finally, the soviets marched back in to the interior of their vessel and covered up the top gun. They then left the area and everyone breathed a collective sigh of relief."

See photos of the USS Badger and Soviet Nikolai Zubov class Intelligence Collection boat on Facebook page KAL 007 Families and Friends page (second posting from top)
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25


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