Polish president's plane crashes in Russia

[Sickbag]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/8612825.stm

A plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed near a Russian airport, officials say.

Russian media reported that 87 people were killed in the crash, but it is not yet known if anyone survived.

The plane was reportedly heading to an airport in the western city of Smolensk when it crashed.

Mr Kaczynski was due to visit Smolensk to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviet troops killed thousands of Poles

He was on his way to the Katyn memorial.


I'm heading to the shops to stock up on tin foil...

[Peter_K]

Crashed in fog on 4th approach. 88 people, mostly high ranking government and parliament officials.

[FrankM]

Airplane said to be Tu-154. Reports now talking about 130 killed.

R.I.P.

[Peter_K]

Airplane said to be Tu-154. Reports now talking about 130 killed.

R.I.P.

Official government sources still list 88. There are unconfirmed, media reports of 3 survivals.

[flyboy2548m]

4 approaches...talk about persistence.

[Not_Karl]

From Wikipedia:

The crash occurred in foggy conditions (0.5km visibility without instrument landing system) about 1.5km from the airport, about 300-400 meters off the landing path, after the pilots attempted a go-around.The airport was closed because of thick fog and the pilot was offered a choice of landing instead in either Moscow or Minsk, however he decided to continue with the original flight plan and the crash occurred on the fourth approach after three failed attempts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polis ... -154_crash

[Sickbag]

The plane had the cream of the Polish military & parliament on board. Its hard not to see the irony considering where they were heading

[David Hilditch]

The plane had the cream of the Polish military & parliament on board. Its hard not to see the irony considering where they were heading

I was just thinking that. You couldn't make it up. It seems an extraordinary tragic irony that a top delegation of Poland's government, society and the military should be wiped out in the shadow of Katyn - almost 70 years ago to the day. Of all places.

Terrible news, Peter, my sympathies.

[Peter_K]

Thank you David. I appreciate it very much. Still hard to come to terms with it.
Some of the people that were aboard:
1st Mr Ryszard Kaczorowski, former president of Poland in Exile

2nd Mr. Krzysztof Putra Sejm Marshal

3rd Mr. Jerzy Szmajdzinski Sejm Marshal

4th Krystyna Bochenek Deputy Senate

5th BAHR Jerzy Ambassador of the Russian Federation

6th Mr. Wladyslaw STASIAK Chief Presidential Chancellery

7th Mr. Aleksander Szczyglo Head of National Security

8th Mr. Paul WYPYCH Secretary of State in the President's Chancellery

9th Mariusz Handzlik Undersecretary of State in the President's Chancellery

10th Mr. Andrzej Kremer, Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs

11th Mr. Stanisław Komorowski, Undersecretary of State in the Defence

12th Mr. Tomasz Merta Undersecretary of State in the Ministry of Culture

13th Gen. Francis Gągor Chief of General Staff of Polish Army

14th Mr Andrew CARRIER Secretary ROPWiM

15th Mr. Maciej Plazynski President of the Association "Polish Community"

16th Mariusz KAZANA MFA Diplomatic Protocol Director

PARLIAMENT REPRESENTATIVES RP

1st Mr. Leszek Deptuła deputy to the Sejm

2nd Mr. Gregory Dolniak deputy to the Sejm

3rd Ms. Grazyna Gęsicka deputy to the Sejm

4th Mr. Przemyslaw Gosiewski deputy to the Sejm

5th Lord Sebastian KARPINIUK deputy to the Sejm

6th Ms. Izabela Jaruga - Nowacka Deputy to the Sejm

7th Mr. Zbigniew Wassermann deputy to the Sejm

8th Ms. Alexander Natallia - WORLD Member of the Sejm

10th Mr. Arkadiusz Rybicki deputy to the Sejm

11th Jolanta Szymanek - Deresz Member of the Sejm

12th Wiesław WATER deputy to the Sejm

13th Mr. Edward Wojtas deputy to the Sejm

14th Janina FETLIŃSKA Senator RP

15th Mr. Stanislaw ZAJAC Senator RP

ACCOMPANYING PERSONS

1st Mr. Janusz Kochanowski Ombudsman

2nd Mr Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the Polish National Bank

3rd Janusz Kurtyka President of the Institute of National Remembrance

4th Janusz Krupski Director of the Office for War Veterans and Repressed Persons

REPRESENTATIVES Churches and Religious Affairs

1st Fr. Bp. Maj.-Gen. Tadeusz Ploski Ordinary of the Polish Army

2nd Archbishop Brig. Miron Chodakowski Orthodox Ordinary Polish Army

3rd Fr. Col. Adam Pilch Field Protestant Chaplaincy

4th Fr. Lt. Col. John OSIŃSKI Ordinariate of the Polish Army

Katyn Families REPRESENTATIVES AND OTHER SOCIETIES

1st Mr. Edward Duchnowski Secretary General of Association of Siberian Deportees

2nd Fr. Monsignor Bronislaw Gostomski

3rd Fr. Association President Joseph Joniec Parafiada

4th Fr. Zdzislaw KING Chaplain Warsaw Katyn Families 1987-2007

5th Fr. Chaplain Andrew Kwasnik Federation of Katyn Families

6th Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI

7th Bozena Łojek President of the Polish Foundation for Katyn

8th Mr. Stefan Melaka Katyn Committee Chairman

9th Mr. Stanisław Mikke Vice ROPWiM

10th Mrs. Bronislaw Orawiec - Löffler

11th Ms. Catherine Piskorska

12th Mr Andrew SARIUSZ - SKĄPSKI President of the Federation of Katyn Families

13th Mr Wojciech SEWERYN

14th Mr. Leszek Solski

15th Ms. Teresa Walewska - PRZYJAŁKOWSKA Foundation Golgotha of the East "

16th Ms. Gabriela Zych

17th Ewa Bąkowska granddaughter Brig. Mieczyslaw Smorawinski

18th Mrs. Maria Borowska

19th Mr. Bartosz BOROWSKI

20th Dariusz MALINOWSKI

REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ARMED FORCES RP

1st Gen. Bronislaw KWIATKOWSKI Operational Commander of Polish Armed Forces

2nd Gen. pil. Andrew Błasik Polish Air Force Commander

3rd Maj.-Gen. Tadeusz BUK Commander of Land Forces of Poland

4th Maj.-Gen. Vladimir POTASIŃSKI Polish Special Forces Commander

5th Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta Commander Navy

6th Brig. Kazimierz GILARSKI Commander Training Centre

[Dummy Pilot]

Amazingly, Wikipedia alrready has a long article on the crash. I have no idea of the accuracy of the following quote from there, but if true, it would be interesting to see the context of the incident:

In 2008, the pilot of Kaczyński's plane was threatened with dismissal when he refused to land the aircraft in Tbilisi during the South Ossetian war.[16]

[3WE]

From Wikipedia:...0.5km visibility without instrument landing system...

Amazing. if true.

[Sickbag]

Russian news sources have the Polish pilots ignoring ATC orders to divert to alternative airfield :

The crew of the Tu-154 of Polish President Lech Kaczynski repeatedly failed to comply with safety instructions Head airfield "Smolensk". This, according to ITAR-TASS, said Deputy Chief of Staff of the Russian Air Force Lt. Gen. Alexander Aleshin. According to him, a group of flight control at a distance of 1.5 kilometers discovered that the Tu-154 increased the vertical velocity and reduced the height of flight.

"Head of the flight crew gave the command to move the aircraft in level flight, and when the crew failed to comply with instructions, several times he gave the command to the alternate. Nevertheless, the crew continued to decline," - added Aleshin.

http://old.lenta.ru/news/2010/04/10/disobey/

[OldSowBreath]

Terrible, terrible tragedy. All of my sympathy to the Polish nation and people. Yet why did they have the top leadership of the country all on one plane?

[Sickbag]

Terrible, terrible tragedy. All of my sympathy to the Polish nation and people. Yet why did they have the top leadership of the country all on one plane?

luckily they have a identical spare president in the trunk.

[FrankM]

Amazingly, Wikipedia alrready has a long article on the crash. I have no idea of the accuracy of the following quote from there, but if true, it would be interesting to see the context of the incident:

In 2008, the pilot of Kaczyński's plane was threatened with dismissal when he refused to land the aircraft in Tbilisi during the South Ossetian war.[16]

When I heard about the fog and the 3 go-arounds before it was my instant thought who it was to force the landing in those unsuitable conditions. Of course you never know but I find it hard to believe it was the pilot ...

[FrankM]

From Wikipedia Article

Pilot ignoring advice from air traffic control

Reuters claimed that the pilot of the jet had 'ignored advice.' A mission control operator spoke anonymously to the news organisation, saying "The pilot was advised to fly to Moscow or Minsk because of heavy fog, but he still decided to land. No one should have been landing in that fog."[25]

Alexandr Aleshin, the First Deputy Chief of the Main Staff of the Russian Air Force, says that the plane increased its descent rate and went below the glide slope while the aircraft was 1.5 km (0.93 mi) from the runway. Controllers instructed the crew to abort the approach; when the pilot did not follow instructions, controllers advised the aircraft to return to the reserve landing point. This order was repeated several times but the crew continued with the approach and crashed.[26]

Inadequate airport

One rumor aired by the Czech TV said that the Smolensk airport had a runway of only 1600 m length which is inadequate for a TU-154. The landing attempt was seen as foolish heroism. This was probably confused with a different civilian airport south of Smolensk - Smolensk South (IATA: LNX). The landing attempt actually took place at Smolensk-North Airport , a military airbase with 2500 m runway. However, this airport does not support ILS landing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polis ... -154_crash

[Digger]

When I heard about the fog and the 3 go-arounds before it was my instant thought who it was to force the landing in those unsuitable conditions. Of course you never know but I find it hard to believe it was the pilot ...

Was the aircraft equipped with a CVR?

It is hard to imagine a pilot with any common sense making a forth approach to a non-ILS runway, but it's not at all hard to imagine some big cheese in the back overruling common sense and ordering him to do so.

[3WE]

Was the aircraft equipped with a CVR?

And I'd like to know if they were, at least, doing a non-precision approach and the type...time to wait for the preliminary report.

[Peter_K]

Amazingly, Wikipedia alrready has a long article on the crash. I have no idea of the accuracy of the following quote from there, but if true, it would be interesting to see the context of the incident:

In 2008, the pilot of Kaczyński's plane was threatened with dismissal when he refused to land the aircraft in Tbilisi during the South Ossetian war.[16]

True, though the threat came from the President, not from pilot's AF commanders. I can imagine that the pressure to land was tremendous from the President's people.

[FrankM]

It is hard to imagine a pilot with any common sense making a forth approach to a non-ILS runway, but it's not at all hard to imagine some big cheese in the back overruling common sense and ordering him to do so.

Exactly. I also wonder if fuel could have been an issue, if it is true that the controllers instructed them to abort several times.

[PurduePilot]

Is anybody able to find available instrument approaches at that airport? I think the ICAO identifier is XUBS. I'd be interested in seeing them, but couldn't find anything with Google.

[flyboy2548m]

Is anybody able to find available instrument approaches at that airport? I think the ICAO identifier is XUBS. I'd be interested in seeing them, but couldn't find anything with Google.

It's UUBS, but I haven't been able to find anything either.

[3WE]

I can imagine that the pressure to land was tremendous from the President's people.

What the hell were they thinking? Shouldn't the president be subject to a crazy-ridiculous safety culture? You'd think he was pretty important.

I'm just a plain old employee and hell, I can't even use my pocket knife at work with their OSHA safety culture!

The type A executive in his Bonanza or some hot shot CEO in a Lear Jet- sure we've seen this behavior before.

But, to do this with the president of a country and so many top officials is a really bad decision making (yes, probably NOT from the Pilots)- and it's a bad decision if there was an ILS-equipped airport not too far away.

[zerooneleft]

Another big wheel who thought himself allmighty. He no nows he is not. Sorry for all the others. 01L

[Sir Gallivant]

Pressure on pilots have led to losses before (and probably will again). In '96 a Danish GIII crashed at Vagar, Faroe Islands. The pilots had wanted to drop the flight due to wx, but the Danish Chief of Defence wanted to fly there and make the decision to divert only if a landing was not possible. It wasn't, but they were not able to divert once they found that out.