If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

An open discussion of aviation safety related issues.

Moderators: FrankM, el, Dmmoore

User avatar
Giles
Posts: 1791
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:35 pm

If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Giles » Thu May 06, 2010 2:45 pm

Was the pilot in the right?

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?secti ... id=7425425
QUEENS (WABC) -- The pilot of an American Airlines plane and an air traffic controller had a disagreement that forced the pilot to make an emergency landing at JFK Airport.

"American 2 heavy, 22L. You're clear to land," the air traffic controller at the JFK tower said.

When the pilots of the passenger-filled 767 American Airlines plane got their landing instructions from the Kennedy Tower, they realized they'd be touching down into a 35-mile per hour cross wind.

"We can't land on 22," the pilot responded. "We're breaking off approach and if you don't give us to runway 31 right, we're going to declare an emergency."

"The winds again increased, exceeded the characteristics of the plane, and he was forced to have another option," said Steve Abraham, of the JFK Controller union. "He had no choice. He couldn't land 22L, it would have been illegal for him."

It would also be dangerous, agreed Abraham.

Landing into a cross wind is much more complicated, but since the closing eight weeks ago of JFK's main runway, air traffic controllers say they've been pressured by the FAA to land planes into tricky cross winds.

There is a safer option, but it would require the use of one runway for all flights in and out of the airport, which would create nightmarish delays.

"It's an issue of capacity versus safety," Abraham said. "If we are on a single runway configuration, landing on runway 31R, which was the runway most in line with the wind, we have major capacity issues, we will run extensive delays."

On Tuesday evening, American Flight 2 out of Los Angeles felt the balance between major delays and safety had been pushed to far.

"You're saying you're declaring an emergency?" the controller asked.

"Three times I told you that, three times, we're declaring and emergency," the pilot responded.

Now, low on fuel, the pilot made it clear he would not land into strong crosswinds.

"American 2 heavy, we are turning around to the left here and landing 31," the pilot said. "Remove everyone from our way, we've declared an emergency, we're on visual."

"American 2 heavy, 31 right clear to land, wind gusting at 24," the JFK tower controller said.

The controller said Tuesday's emergency landing is a warning that with the main runway under construction, safety should not be compromised just to avoid delays.

"I can explain to somebody why they're late," Abraham said. "I can't explain when they don't get there."

User avatar
Ancient Mariner
Posts: 3774
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Ancient Mariner » Thu May 06, 2010 2:51 pm

"capacity versus safety" I know which I prefer.
Per

User avatar
Sickbag
Posts: 2969
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: Spine-fuhrer of Hoboken

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Sickbag » Thu May 06, 2010 6:47 pm

Was the pilot in the right?
Yes.
2022: The year of the Squid Singularity

User avatar
Gabriel
Posts: 3689
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:55 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Gabriel » Thu May 06, 2010 10:55 pm

Was the pilot in the right?
I'd like to see the full transcript of the exchange between the plane and the tower.

If the tower clears you for a runway and you can't legally use it or are otherwise unwilling to use it due to safety concerns, you just say "unable".
Then ATC has to give you some other instruction or ask you for your intentions.
You can ask for a different runway and ATC can deny it and offer a different thing or again ask you for your intentions.
The logical outcome of this is that you either are cleared to a runway that fit your needs, or you ask and cleared to go the alternate.
If you can't negotiate any of those with the ATC, then yes you declare an emergency. Once the emergency is declared you just inform (if able) what you are going to do. You are not required follow ATC instructions (be ready to explain this later though). So you declare an emergency and declare that you go for an alternate or that you are landing in runway XXX (and yes Mr ATC, I'm in an emregency, I've got right of way, move anyone else away from my intentions).

"Unable" and "Emergency" are like two magic words for a pilot. ATC can't force you to do something you declare unable, but you still can't do what you want. With an emergency you can.

I wouldn't like it if the pilot used the emergency as a tool to avoid going to an alternate airport.

(Flyboy, do your best)

User avatar
Giles
Posts: 1791
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Giles » Thu May 06, 2010 11:13 pm

I'd like to see the full transcript of the exchange between the plane and the tower.
The recording is available on liveatc.net

User avatar
VectorForFood
Posts: 859
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:49 am

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby VectorForFood » Fri May 07, 2010 11:45 am

I really hope there's more to this story.

If the pilot declared an emergency simply because of the crosswind, then that's unprofessional, and foolish... ignoring missed approach instructions for the same reason is also unacceptable.

You can't just declare an emergency because you didn't get what you want, and if you do you WILL answer for it with enforcement.

THAT BEING SAID, if the pilot had a real fuel issue which we may not have info on, then that's a different story, but the crew also could have been more descriptive.

"Tower, we need 31R now, we are declaring an emergency, min fuel"

Those last two words would have ended this whole debate, however, my thoughts on the pilots demeanor, and the nature of the emergency, AND hearing the earlier approach tapes, it looks like this crew just got pissy about having to land in an unacceptable crosswind, and instead of dealing with it professionally decided to ruin everyones day for their own benefit.

There's no doubt here that the crosswinds were high, and it's 100% the pilots responsibility to keep his aircraft safe, but crosswinds is not a valid reason to declare an emergency.

User avatar
Giles
Posts: 1791
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Giles » Fri May 07, 2010 1:51 pm

but the crew also could have been more descriptive.
on the other side of that coin- the tower could have been a little bit more insistent. they did not inquire as to the nature of the emergency or fuel / souls on board.

User avatar
VectorForFood
Posts: 859
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:49 am

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby VectorForFood » Fri May 07, 2010 7:10 pm

considering the circumstances there was little to no time for the controller to do that, job 1 is separate airplanes, all other tasks are secondary. If you listen to the recording following it was incredibly hectic until Aal got on the ground, not to mention you do not hear the interior coordination at work at the time which I guarantee was twice what was on the frequency

User avatar
Giles
Posts: 1791
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Giles » Fri May 07, 2010 8:07 pm

considering the circumstances there was little to no time for the controller to do that, job 1 is separate airplanes, all other tasks are secondary.
and for the pilot job 1 is to aviate.

If you listen to the recording following it was incredibly hectic
I have. The recording is time compressed- silences removed.
The pilot stated three times that he WOULD declare. First time with the approach controller.
Plenty of opportunity for the controller(s) to inquire.

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri May 07, 2010 10:14 pm

Excellent parlor-talking, everyone, carry on.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
VectorForFood
Posts: 859
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:49 am

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby VectorForFood » Sat May 08, 2010 12:11 am

All I'll say to the pilots in question... if you're going to declare an emergency then just declare one, state your intentions and carry on.

This beating around the bush BS saying "We will if you dont give us what we want" means NOTHING to ATC, if they want to declare an emergency, then do it, if you don't declare an emergency then I can tell you ZNY, ZBW and the likes are not going to care what your request is, because that's all it is.

For the record declaring "minimum fuel" also grants you no special treatment, nor would it have gotten then runway 31R.

If the crew needed to declare, then they should have declared when they got their approach instructions, not whined about it til the last minute, causing nothing but a mess for everyone involved.

User avatar
VectorForFood
Posts: 859
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:49 am

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby VectorForFood » Sat May 08, 2010 12:14 am

Excellent parlor-talking, everyone, carry on.
Go try on another Daimler Benz t-shirt hotrod.

User avatar
Gabriel
Posts: 3689
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:55 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Gabriel » Sat May 08, 2010 3:58 am

This beating around the bush BS saying "We will if you dont give us what we want" means NOTHING to ATC, if they want to declare an emergency, then do it, if you don't declare an emergency then I can tell you ZNY, ZBW and the likes are not going to care what your request is, because that's all it is.
VFF,

I've seen (or heard or read about) ATC change the clearance at the request of the pilot. In some times the request had been originally denied and then the pilot explained the reason for the request and the ATC changed his mind and conceded it.

In one case (in Flying magazine) Lane wrote that she was flying in marginal VFR and was vectored above water due to traffic. She started to loose sight of the shore and requested closer to the shore. It was denied. She insisted explaining the situation. It was denied again. Then she said that she was not instrument rated and that she was not willing to loose visual ground reference, and that if she was not cleared closer to the shore she would declare an emergency and go closer anyway. She was granted closer.

In one case, I was flying patterns at a controlled airport and a pilot called for landing. He was cleared downwind for the runway in use. He requested a straight in to the opposite runway. The request was denied with the explanation that there were several airplanes in the pattern. Then the pilot said "look, I really have to go". He was cleared his straight in (it was quite a mess for the rest of us but everybody looked happy to help).

I had one similar case myself. I was approaching an airport and had been cleared for downwind to the runway in use. The airplane started to make a strange noise and I requested a straight in to the opposite runway. It was granted, but I was ready to declare an emergency and do it anyway if not.

There was one case with an Aerolineas Argentinas plane approaching Aeroparque (Buenos Aires downtown airport, the busiest airport in Argentina). I was doing VOR training on a nearby VOR and was in contact with Aeroparque approach. I don't remember exactly how it was but the pilot said something like that the he would have to declare a fuel emergency as soon as he noticed that he would not land with legal reserves and that that was going to happen with the current situation, and asked please to change the clearance to prevent that. He was granted.

On the other hand, I've never heard the ATC not conceding a request as those above.

An emergency is declared when the safety is compromised. Sometimes whether the safety is compromised or not depends on the clearance. I see nothing wrong with the pilot explaining the ATC that the current clearance would compromise the safety of the flight, and hence an emergency would have to be declared unless it is changed.

On the other hand, nobody like emergencies, if only for the high workload it triggers and then the potential paperwork. If the pilot says he needs 31L, and that if not granted he will have to declare an emergency and go for 31L, and you can clear him for 31L, what's the point of not clearing him for 31L but having an emergency and him still landing on 31L? As long as this doesn't become abuse.

User avatar
Giles
Posts: 1791
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Giles » Sat May 08, 2010 4:46 am

not whined about it til the last minute, causing nothing but a mess for everyone involved.
I repeat-
The pilot stated three times that he WOULD declare. First time with the approach controller.
Does not seem "last minute".

User avatar
VectorForFood
Posts: 859
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:49 am

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby VectorForFood » Sat May 08, 2010 4:51 am

Read again Giles, saying you're going to declare changes nothing, until you actually do.

User avatar
Giles
Posts: 1791
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Giles » Sat May 08, 2010 4:57 am

Read again Giles, saying you're going to declare changes nothing, until you actually do.
I don't have to, you said "whined".

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby flyboy2548m » Sun May 09, 2010 5:57 pm

Thank you, Gabriel, for that extensive recap of your similarly extensive flying experience. Fascinating reading!
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

PurduePilot
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:02 am

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby PurduePilot » Sun May 09, 2010 6:35 pm

Thank you, Gabriel, for that extensive recap of your similarly extensive flying experience. Fascinating reading!
One time I really had to go on a night solo cross-country. I didn't ask ATC to land at Kokomo, I told them I was going to land at Kokomo.

Carry on.

Digger
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:28 pm

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Digger » Mon May 10, 2010 2:43 am

Read again Giles, saying you're going to declare changes nothing, until you actually do.
Maybe there in the great white north, but in the US, 7110.65T specifies:
10-1-1. EMERGENCY DETERMINATIONS
a. An emergency can be either a Distress or an
Urgency condition as defined in the “Pilot/Controller
Glossary.”
b. A pilot who encounters a Distress condition
should declare an emergency by beginning the initial
communication with the word “Mayday,” preferably
repeated three times. For an Urgency condition, the
word “Pan‐Pan” should be used in the same manner.
c. If the words “Mayday” or “Pan‐Pan” are not
used and you are in doubt that a situation constitutes
an emergency or potential emergency, handle it as
though it were
an emergency.
(Bold and Italics are mine.)

So essentially, all it has to do is to seem like it might be an emergency for things to change.

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon May 10, 2010 2:42 pm

Thank you, Gabriel, for that extensive recap of your similarly extensive flying experience. Fascinating reading!
One time I really had to go on a night solo cross-country. I didn't ask ATC to land at Kokomo, I told them I was going to land at Kokomo.

Carry on.
Attaboy, Bradley! Way to excerise that PIC authority.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

User avatar
Giles
Posts: 1791
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby Giles » Mon May 10, 2010 3:13 pm

Flyboy- I was wondering what your take was on the pilot declaring emergency?
What was the emergency?
What would you have done differently?
What, if anything, should the pilot have done differently?
What, if anything, should have ATC done differently?

User avatar
VectorForFood
Posts: 859
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:49 am

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby VectorForFood » Mon May 10, 2010 3:47 pm

SOMEONE forgot to scream YEEEHAW!!!

User avatar
VectorForFood
Posts: 859
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:49 am

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby VectorForFood » Mon May 10, 2010 3:49 pm

The rule is the same in Canada as well Ike.

PurduePilot
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:02 am

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby PurduePilot » Mon May 10, 2010 5:52 pm

Thank you, Gabriel, for that extensive recap of your similarly extensive flying experience. Fascinating reading!
One time I really had to go on a night solo cross-country. I didn't ask ATC to land at Kokomo, I told them I was going to land at Kokomo.

Carry on.
Attaboy, Bradley! Way to excerise that PIC authority.
I do what I can. Now get back to your FMC-controlled video game with wings.

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 4391
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: If you dont give us 31R we will declare emergency.

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon May 10, 2010 7:41 pm

Flyboy- I was wondering what your take was on the pilot declaring emergency?
What was the emergency?
What would you have done differently?
What, if anything, should the pilot have done differently?
What, if anything, should have ATC done differently?
I wasn't there, Giles, but when in doubt, I refer to 14 CFR Part 91.3.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.


Return to “Aviation Safety Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 15 guests