UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

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David Hilditch
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UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby David Hilditch » Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:06 pm

Breaking news, as they say.

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J
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby J » Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:46 pm

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — A UPS 747 cargo plane with two crew aboard crashed in Dubai shortly after takeoff Friday, the company said.

The crash set some cars on fire and killed several people, Al Arabiya television reported.

Ambulances were rushing to the area, located near a residential district, the station added.

The dead were thought to be the cargo plane's crew, Al Arabiya said.

A large section of the plane was visibly on fire before it crashed.


"UPS Flight 6 from Dubai, UAE, to Cologne, DE, a 747-400 with two crewmembers on board crashed on takeoff," the Atlanta-based company said in a statement.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/38992716/ ... tn_africa/

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby orangehuggy » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:42 pm

the UPS statement confusingly states that it crashed "on takeoff" but the time it would take for a fire to develop is inconsistent with this, I would suggest it was already on its way to Germany when the fire forced the (unsuccessful) return.

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby Sickbag » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:31 pm

Was Tomfoolery involved?
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby David Hilditch » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:36 pm

Orangehuggy, correct, I think, looks like they were close to Bahrain when they elected to return due to on-board fire.

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby IntheShade » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:13 am

Aww crap...
"I witnessed the whole thing on the radio while landing into AUH.
After attempting a straight in approach for 12L and getting there high and fast they were suggested to try OMSJ on hdg 090 or make a 360°.
I am afraid they lost spacial orientation while trying to join a RH downwidn for 12L.
They seemed to be unable to see any flight instrument or radio in the cockpit and they continously asked for their altitude, speed, heading to ATC through the realy of other airplanes cause they could not see
their own radio panel to swith to UAE Control or Dubai Tower."
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby J » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:35 am

Here is some more.

Excerpt:
A statement posted Friday on the UPS website said that at approximately 12 p.m. Eastern Standard time, or 8 p.m. local time, UPS flight number 6 from Dubai and headed to Cologne, Germany—a Boeing Co. 747-400—crashed after takeoff.

The plane took off around 7 p.m. local time, and, according to a person familiar with the situation in the U.A.E., the crew reported trouble shortly after becoming airborne and alerted air-traffic controllers, who eventually diverted the plane to a government-owned landing facility in the desert.

According to one set of early data gathered by air-safety officials, the pilots may have tried but failed to land twice during the hour prior to the crash. Sometime during the reported sequence of two "missed approaches" to the airport, according to this information, the cockpit crew declared a mayday, possibly due to smoke in the cockpit.

Some preliminary reports indicated that the pilots ultimately may have been forced to try to land at the government-owned facility after struggling with an onboard emergency that may have obscured their view of some cockpit instruments.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby el » Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:12 am

An airport official said, the crew reported technical problems while on approach to Dubai.

An United Arab Emirates official said, the crew reported fire on board while on approach to Dubai. The airplane, that had taken off at 18:40L (14:40Z) was being vectored towards a military compound.

United Arab Emirates General Aviation Civil Authority said, that the crew had reported smoke and fire in the cockpit and was returning to Dubai International Airport. The airplane failed to land however and disappeared from radar screens shortly thereafter. The bodies of both pilots have been recovered.

Residents of Dubai Silicon Oasis said, the airplane crashed right in front of their apartment blocks.

Aviation sources in Dubai report, that the crew declared emergency reporting a fire in the cockpit shortly after takeoff and attempted to return to the airport's runway 30L dumping fuel. The airplane was seen flying very low at a shallow descent until impact, where the airplane erupted in a large fire ball. Several buildings, apparently all of them under construction, have been set on fire by the crash.

Pilots on frequency of Bahrain Center reported, that the airplane had been enroute overhead the Arabian Gulf about 120nm westnorthwest of Dubai when the crew performed an emergency descent and reported a fire in the cockpit. Later they reported they were unable to read their instruments and were unable to change frequency asking for frequent updates on their altitude and speed from ATC. They were vectored for a straight in approach to Dubai's runway 12L. Being too high and too fast for landing they were offered to divert to Sharjah or join a right hand downwind for another visual approach to runway 12L. The airplane impacted ground about 20 minutes after declaring emergency.

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby Gabriel » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:01 pm

The airplane impacted ground about 20 minutes after declaring emergency.
In a cabin fire you either get it down within 15 minutes or you'll still be down by then.

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby IntheShade » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:26 pm

The airplane impacted ground about 20 minutes after declaring emergency.
In a cabin fire you either get it down within 15 minutes or you'll still be down by then.

Based on what?

---On a different note with all the crap aluminum copper coated CAPON wiring in the A380 I wouldn't step foot on it while they were doing a lav service much less ride on it. That thing is primed and loaded to have a uncontained fire. I read a report where they are already getting wire arcing.
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby Gabriel » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:10 pm

The airplane impacted ground about 20 minutes after declaring emergency.
In a cabin fire you either get it down within 15 minutes or you'll still be down by then.
Based on what?
It's just a saying.
The FAA issued a cabin fire document where it showed that 15 minutes is as much as one might have to land before the plane or the pilot become dissabled.
And it urged to take "land ASAP" as first priority and forget other things like waiting to reduce weight until the plane is within MLW.
It even go to state that the PIC should seriously consider an off-airport landing or ditching if the fire remains uncontrollable.

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby B77W-QOTS » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:55 pm

N571UP was the rego delivered to UPS in 09/2007
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby Hazmat » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:52 pm


---On a different note with all the crap aluminum copper coated CAPON wiring in the A380 I wouldn't step foot on it while they were doing a lav service much less ride on it. That thing is primed and loaded to have a uncontained fire. I read a report where they are already getting wire arcing.
That is a very simplistic way of portraying the problems with kapton wiring.
Even Boeing still uses Kapton to this day, granted its coated with Teflon (TKT) but the kapton itself was not solely the source of so many problems (almost all with older Boeing and MDD models and many military aircraft), many of the problems actually stemmed from the improper techniques used by B and MDD to print info on the cables, since the insulation is very thin (up to only 150µm wall thickness) they damaged lots of cables during assembly of the cable boom by putting too much force on the cable-binders and even worse by using the hot stamping method and thereby damaging the cable from the onset (B757 on 14-06-1985 Monarch airlines , just to give one well studied example).
Airbus on the other hand developed (for the A320-program) a completely benign UV-Laser marking method not damaging for the cable but effective in printing relevant info on the cable, they never suffered a problem since IIRC)

BTW also Airbus uses Teflon coated wiring (TK) on the 380, the problems with the ALU core/CU-coating are more in the area off wire stripping methods where they have to go into the different terminals, again to deal with this , a new laser-stripping-technique was introduced to effectively deal with that problem .

I would be very interested to read that report you found, I'm also a tad sceptic of the new , lighter , CU-coated ALU cables, would be very interested to get some info as to how it is behaving and what specific problems it is giving so far.

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby IntheShade » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:13 am

It even go to state that the PIC should seriously consider an off-airport landing or ditching if the fire remains uncontrollable.

So in other words 15 minutes is a wild ass guess and only incidental in information.
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby Gabriel » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:41 am

So in other words 15 minutes is a wild ass guess and only incidental in information.
Indeed!

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby IntheShade » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:07 am

Thus the 15 minute marker is nebulous.

Did you know I have had two cockpit fires (electrical--Piper Apache/727) and was able to stop them?

That you don't get the sensationalism for the one which are put out and the aircraft doesn't crash?

That some fires are catostrophic in nature but many aren't?

That the 15 minute marker is Parlour Talk but it sounds great after an accident like this?
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby Hazmat » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:35 am

What about the new FEDEX automated fire suppression system on the larger aircraft (MD's and 777's), would that have made a difference or is that just limited to the cargo and not the cockpit?
Saw a video on the FEDEX website, looked pretty effective.

Or the EVAS system, that would maybe even be better for this situation, no?

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby IntheShade » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:17 pm

What about the new FEDEX automated fire suppression system on the larger aircraft (MD's and 777's), would that have made a difference or is that just limited to the cargo and not the cockpit?
Saw a video on the FEDEX website, looked pretty effective.

Or the EVAS system, that would maybe even be better for this situation, no?

It is a safety enhancement.

There is one given: We do not know what "this situation" was.
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby 3WE » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:35 am

So in other words 15 minutes is a wild ass guess and only incidental in information.
Indeed!
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:14 pm

That the 15 minute marker is Parlour Talk but it sounds great after an accident like this?
Sorta like everything else Gabriel tends to post.
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby 3WE » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:35 pm

That the 15 minute marker is Parlour Talk but it sounds great after an accident like this?
Sorta like everything else Gabriel and 3BS tends to post.
Fixed
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby supersean » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:26 am

That the 15 minute marker is Parlour Talk but it sounds great after an accident like this?
Sorta like everything else Gabriel and 3BS tends to post.
Fixed
You two are starting to sound like the 2 old guys from the Muppet Show who would just gripe & complain! While there may be no predefined time line from when a fire initiates to loss of flight control, I think history and common sense are on the side of get the aircraft to the nearest air field ASAP as soon as smoke and open flames are observed.
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby IntheShade » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:24 am

, I think history and common sense are on the side of get the aircraft to the nearest air field ASAP as soon as smoke and open flames are observed.
Well said, the "fifteen minutes and you're dead" is rife Parlour Talk.

There hasve been many high rate fires such as ValueJet, NW DC-9, FDX DC-10, UPS PHL & Dubai, SwissAir, ect...

But there are even more unreported by the media fires which were contained, stabilized or burned out after the above mentioned 15 minutes.
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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby OldSowBreath » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:07 pm

Everyone's entitled to their 15 minutes of flame.

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Re: UPS 747-400F down in Dubai

Postby GlennAB1 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:47 am

Sorta like everything else Gabriel and 3BS tends to post.
Fixed
You two are starting to sound like the 2 old guys from the Muppet Show who would just gripe & complain! While there may be no predefined time line from when a fire initiates to loss of flight control, I think history and common sense are on the side of get the aircraft to the nearest air field ASAP as soon as smoke and open flames are observed.
and open flames are observed? crazy..... you have smoke, get on the ground asap.
you still have to find a crew willing to fly this "barely airworthy" heap
no such thing as "barely airworthy" it's either Airworthy or Not
100% incorrect Ever hear of Ferry Permit? issued for Non airworthy aircraft
LOL


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