"Almost airworthy" branch thread.

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3WE
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"Almost airworthy" branch thread.

Postby 3WE » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:16 pm

...The issue is not whether or not JP can certify airworthiness, that's irrelevant. The issue is that he can, in fact, he has to (reference 14 CFR 121.533(e) and elsewhere) certify that in his opinion the flight can be made with safety. That's what his signature on that release means. If he's not comfortable, he won't sign the release and he won't operate the flight. I wish more pilots remembered that it's called "pilot in command", not "dumb and dutiful employee in the left seat". For dumb and dutiful God invented the autopilot.

I trust the system exactly as much as it trusts me, which isn't much.
So Flyboy (or ITS), as you are probably aware I used to live near a small airport and catch Trans States/Corporate J-31 flights to STL.

One day- a flight was canceled because a prop reverse warning light or in-flight-reverse lockout system had failed (don't remember exactly). The pilots flew the plane back to STL for maintenance- while I caught the next fight.

This may not be comparable to the Quantas plane- but it is a situation where the plane is deemed "not worthy to carry passengers" but "worthy to carry pilots"- and it makes for an interesting discussion.

It says there's a measurable risk of killing passengers that we are not willing to take with them, but that we are to take with the dumb, dutiful driver. You can even twist the argument that they can afford to pay off the pilots families, but that the negative publicity and lawsuits from killing passengers would reduce profits.

So where does that leave all this argument?

Do things usually work well? That the situations are such that most pilots are comfortable and would make the flight?

OR

Do we frequently have situations where it's really kind of risky, the airline keeps looking, and can usually find, some idiots to ferry the plane?
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Ancient Mariner
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Re: "Almost airworthy" branch thread.

Postby Ancient Mariner » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:36 pm

]

Do we frequently have situations where it's really kind of risky, the airline keeps looking, and can usually find, some idiots to ferry the plane?
Easy now, 3WE, they're called pilots, not idiots.
Per

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Giles
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Re: "Almost airworthy" branch thread.

Postby Giles » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:38 pm


It says there's a measurable risk of killing passengers that we are not willing to take with them, but that we are to take with the dumb, dutiful driver. You can even twist the argument that they can afford to pay off the pilots families, but that the negative publicity and lawsuits from killing passengers would reduce profits.
wrong

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flyboy2548m
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Re: "Almost airworthy" branch thread.

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:41 pm

Why is this a separate thread?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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3WE
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Re: "Almost airworthy" branch thread.

Postby 3WE » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:42 pm

Why is this a separate thread?
Because this question is not about an ITS-bashed composite aircraft that had an uncontained engine failure.
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Re: "Almost airworthy" branch thread.

Postby IntheShade » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:25 am

To answer your question (although I didn't read the whole thing) it all depends on the damage, conditions, repair, pilot.

What I am going to tell you was illegal but when I was younger working at the airport a Dude ground looped a Cessna 195 and got a wingtip into the ground resulting in spar damage on another airport. It wasn't reported to my knowledge and to get the airplane back they cut a hole in the bottom skin, jammed some 2"x4" planks inside next to the spar, bolted it with pipe clamps and flew it back. Would I have done it? No way.

When I was working at the glider port a Air Force grad in a 1-36 pulled excessive G and put over one foot more dihedral in the wings of the sailplane and hen flew around like that for over two hours. The next guy to preflight found a bunch of popped rivets across the center section. Ultimeately the wings were on the verge of folding up and the sailplane was destroyed.

I have flown on ferry permits SA-227, Helio Courrier, Cessna 310, and a couple other airplanes. I've also done maintenance flights, return to service flights, initial test flights after rebuilds--numerous times. In fact I will be doing three before spring on rebuilt aircraft.

I'll tell you more if you are interested but the main point is this: These are all more open to error, problems, accident than normal operation. Some of the best pilots in the world have been hurt or killed doing them. Proper preflight, understanding of why the airplane is in the condition it is, proper inspection of the work is required. You also have to have contingency plans and the willingness to stop the operation for safety reasons.

The guys standing on the ground won't get hit, but you will. Something as little as a loose washer, lost screwdriver, cotter pin missing can end the flight quickly. Examples: 787 or the UTube video of the F-4 test flight at St Louis.
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GlennAB1
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Re: "Almost airworthy" branch thread.

Postby GlennAB1 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:09 am

The guys standing on the ground won't get hit, but you will. Something as little as a loose washer, lost screwdriver, cotter pin missing can end the flight quickly. Examples: 787 or the UTube video of the F-4 test flight at St Louis.
Yeah, and you were a jackass about the bucking bar I found inside a stabilizer.....
you still have to find a crew willing to fly this "barely airworthy" heap
no such thing as "barely airworthy" it's either Airworthy or Not
100% incorrect Ever hear of Ferry Permit? issued for Non airworthy aircraft
LOL

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Not_Karl
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Re: "Almost airworthy" branch thread.

Postby Not_Karl » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:14 am

I'll tell you more if you are interested
Please! :)
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Re: "Almost airworthy" branch thread.

Postby ocelot » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:52 am

I'll tell you more if you are interested
Please! :)
indeed


3WE, there are lots of reasons besides "they might died" to not have pax on a ferry flight - weight restrictions, speed restrictions, altitude restrictions, fuel consumption concerns, ruling out the possibility of having to divert for medical emergencies, etc. etc. etc.


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