...crash...SR22...

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3WE
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...crash...SR22...

Postby 3WE » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:59 pm

Quote = http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/09/ ... 347805767/
Small plane crash kills 2 adults, 3 kids

WILLARD, Mo., Sept. 16 (UPI) -- Two adults and three children died when the small aircraft they were traveling in crashed into a field near Willard, Mo., officials said.

John Lambert, 44, of Springfield, and Robin Melton, 46, of Ozark, along with Lambert's children, Grayson, 16, McKinley, 15, and Joshua, 10, died with the 2002 Cirrus SR22 crashed just after midnight Saturday, Highway Patrol spokesman Jason Pace told The (Springfield, Mo.) News-Leader.

Police believe the plane was heading to Springfield-Branson National Airport and originated in Kansas City. Pace said Grayson posted a photo on Twitter Friday night showing the family at a Royals baseball game in Kansas City.

Cindy Farmer, who owns the land where the crash occurred, said she heard the plane getting closer and closer.

"I thought, it's going to crash. Then I heard this sonic boom and saw this ball of fire. It was huge," she said.

She said she and her husband went to the crash site where they saw remnants of the plane burning.

"I saw wings still. We went around trying to see if anyone was still alive. It was burning so fast," Farmer said.

The Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board are investigating the cause of the accident, the News-Leader reported.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/09/ ... z26eUSsKMP
Standard Profile Review:

Complex single: Check.
Transportation flight (as opposed to sunny afternoon pleasure flight): Check.
Significant meteorological conditions: Not yet determined- but it was night.
"Type A" Pilot: Possibly.
Parachute use: Not yet determined.
More passengers than seats: Apparently
Parlour talk that those who carry more passengers than seats may be lax with respect to regulations and safety: Usually
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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Gabriel
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby Gabriel » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:45 pm

Image

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3WE
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby 3WE » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:23 am

...pic of 3 shoulder harnesses & lap belts...
Cozy.

And sad.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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VectorForFood
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby VectorForFood » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:06 pm

SR22 has a useful load of 1100 pounds.

Assuming both adults were around 200 pounds = 400

Three children, lets assume average weight of 140 each, which is high, but not unreasonable. = 420

820 Pounds, not including the inevitable baggage, which they must have taken with them, lets say around 50 pounds to be "light"

Total weight before fuel= 870 pounds. leaving 280 pounds for fuel.

That's 46 Gallons of fuel, or exactly 1/2 tanks for an SR22. (assuming he actually cared about W&B)

If you factor run-up and the normal delays of approach etc you're looking at around 16.5 gallons of fuel burn in an SR22 each way for a total of 33 Gallons, that's assuming he leaned out the airplane to max efficency at 65% power as well... who knows.

Weather for the accident time:
SP 16/09/2012 03:20->
SPECI KSGF 160320Z 06005KT 4SM BR OVC003 16/14 A3014 RMK
AO2 CIG 002V006=
SP 16/09/2012 03:05->
SPECI KSGF 160305Z 08005KT 2SM BR OVC003 16/15 A3014 RMK
AO2 CIG 002V006=
SA 16/09/2012 02:52->
METAR KSGF 160252Z 06004KT 2SM BR OVC005 16/15 A3014=
SP 16/09/2012 02:40->
SPECI KSGF 160240Z 08005KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC005 16/14 A3014
RMK AO2=
In otherwords, IFR conditions.


So another thing is for certain, if he followed W&B calculations properly, he was borderline on fuel for an IFR alternate, if not under.

Willard, the crash site is on final for runway 14, around 4NM from the threshold.

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Gabriel
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby Gabriel » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:07 pm

And w&b accidents tend to happen during / immediately after take-off.

What 3we said is that a pilot disregarding w&b and if there is a seat for each passenger (which might be the case, only the newest SR22 have three places in the rear row), is likely to do "disregarding" in other things too (like IFR proficiency, icing, fuel reserves, etc.)

The only problem is that we just don't know if this pilot was disregarding anything. 3we based his assumption in a supernumerary passenger that might not have been the case if it was a new SR22.

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Ancient Mariner
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby Ancient Mariner » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Assuming both adults were around 200 pounds = 400
Three children, lets assume average weight of 140 each, which is high, but not unreasonable. = 420
:o
Forgot, USoAians. I blame McD.
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3WE
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby 3WE » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:30 pm

...What 3we said is...
...not nearly as much as you are trying to say I said.

The high-performance single crash statistic dilemma is complex.

Is it pilot personality?

Or is it that complex singles fly in weather while 'recreational' singles stick more to severe VMC, and that weather has it's own risks, even if you are both Captain Cautious and Captain Competent?
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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Gabriel
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby Gabriel » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:31 pm

I was thinking of this part:
More passengers than seats: Apparently
Parlour talk that those who carry more passengers than seats may be lax with respect to regulations and safety: Usually

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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby PurduePilot » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:29 am

SR22 has a useful load of 1100 pounds.

Assuming both adults were around 200 pounds = 400

Three children, lets assume average weight of 140 each, which is high, but not unreasonable. = 420

820 Pounds, not including the inevitable baggage, which they must have taken with them, lets say around 50 pounds to be "light"

Total weight before fuel= 870 pounds. leaving 280 pounds for fuel.

That's 46 Gallons of fuel, or exactly 1/2 tanks for an SR22. (assuming he actually cared about W&B)

If you factor run-up and the normal delays of approach etc you're looking at around 16.5 gallons of fuel burn in an SR22 each way for a total of 33 Gallons, that's assuming he leaned out the airplane to max efficency at 65% power as well... who knows.

Weather for the accident time:
SP 16/09/2012 03:20->
SPECI KSGF 160320Z 06005KT 4SM BR OVC003 16/14 A3014 RMK
AO2 CIG 002V006=
SP 16/09/2012 03:05->
SPECI KSGF 160305Z 08005KT 2SM BR OVC003 16/15 A3014 RMK
AO2 CIG 002V006=
SA 16/09/2012 02:52->
METAR KSGF 160252Z 06004KT 2SM BR OVC005 16/15 A3014=
SP 16/09/2012 02:40->
SPECI KSGF 160240Z 08005KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC005 16/14 A3014
RMK AO2=
In otherwords, IFR conditions.


So another thing is for certain, if he followed W&B calculations properly, he was borderline on fuel for an IFR alternate, if not under.

Willard, the crash site is on final for runway 14, around 4NM from the threshold.
Those are some fat people...

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Gabriel
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby Gabriel » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:37 am

Nobleza obliga
It is unclear why the four-seat aircraft was carrying five passengers
http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/acci ... MTQ2Njk2S0

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VectorForFood
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby VectorForFood » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:15 am

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/bodymeas.htm
http://men.webmd.com/news/20041027/aver ... ng-heavier


Not sure why you guys think my stats are off, a whole six pounds?

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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:09 pm

In otherwords, IFR conditions.


So another thing is for certain, if he followed W&B calculations properly, he was borderline on fuel for an IFR alternate, if not under.

Willard, the crash site is on final for runway 14, around 4NM from the threshold.
An explosion and a "huge ball of fire" and things "burning so fast" when the witnesses got to the scene would point me away from fuel exhaustion.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby Ancient Mariner » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:11 pm

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/bodymeas.htm
http://men.webmd.com/news/20041027/aver ... ng-heavier


Not sure why you guys think my stats are off, a whole six pounds?
I didn't say that. Just mildly surprised.
Per

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3WE
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby 3WE » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:05 am

Nobleza obliga
It is unclear why the four-seat aircraft was carrying five passengers
http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/acci ... MTQ2Njk2S0

Ok, Ok, it's a 5-seat plane.

Of course a 172 is a 6 seater because there's a child seat that can be put in behind "Row 2"

And, in spite of VFF's fuel calculations, and right or wrong, there's plenty of 4-seaters that get loaded with four 'average' folks and full fuel- even though that's almost a gaurantee of being overweight...But, it's not July, not the heat of the day and the Kansas City Mountains are somewhat lower than those in that recent tree-trimming video.
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Gabriel
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby Gabriel » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:55 am

Nobleza obliga
It is unclear why the four-seat aircraft was carrying five passengers
http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/acci ... MTQ2Njk2S0

Ok, Ok, it's a 5-seat plane.
No, man. It was a 4-seats plane.
The part I quoted says it, and in the same article (linked) they said that it was a 4 seats plane because it was not newest version comes with 5 seats.

I guess that the "nobleza obliga" part was misleading?

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Not_Karl
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby Not_Karl » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:13 am

I guess that the "nobleza obliga" part was misleading?
Yeah, that silly European language you speak.
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VectorForFood
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby VectorForFood » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:07 pm

In otherwords, IFR conditions.


So another thing is for certain, if he followed W&B calculations properly, he was borderline on fuel for an IFR alternate, if not under.

Willard, the crash site is on final for runway 14, around 4NM from the threshold.
An explosion and a "huge ball of fire" and things "burning so fast" when the witnesses got to the scene would point me away from fuel exhaustion.
I wasn't very clear about the intent of my post.

I was simply trying to lay out some hypothesis which might help come up with a cause.

If I had to venture a wild guess, based on my "findings" I would say a hurried IFR approach to almost minimums, the pilot knowing he was going to be tight on fuel if he didn't make it in, maybe descended too low to try and "break out"

Who knows, all I know is that anyone who puts 5 people in a 4 seat airplane (Short of a skydive aircraft) probably had it coming anyway, the sad part is that others had to die from his actions.

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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby GlennAB1 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:20 pm

I don't think anyone had it coming.
you still have to find a crew willing to fly this "barely airworthy" heap
no such thing as "barely airworthy" it's either Airworthy or Not
100% incorrect Ever hear of Ferry Permit? issued for Non airworthy aircraft
LOL

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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby flyboy2548m » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:54 pm

I wasn't very clear about the intent of my post.

I was simply trying to lay out some hypothesis which might help come up with a cause.

If I had to venture a wild guess, based on my "findings" I would say a hurried IFR approach to almost minimums, the pilot knowing he was going to be tight on fuel if he didn't make it in, maybe descended too low to try and "break out"


SGF has two very long runways, both with ILS approaches. Ceilings were tight, but the visibility was plentiful. All he had to do was hit the APPR button and have the airplane fly itself to Rwy 02.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

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VectorForFood
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby VectorForFood » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:48 pm

I wasn't very clear about the intent of my post.

I was simply trying to lay out some hypothesis which might help come up with a cause.

If I had to venture a wild guess, based on my "findings" I would say a hurried IFR approach to almost minimums, the pilot knowing he was going to be tight on fuel if he didn't make it in, maybe descended too low to try and "break out"


SGF has two very long runways, both with ILS approaches. Ceilings were tight, but the visibility was plentiful. All he had to do was hit the APPR button and have the airplane fly itself to Rwy 02.
and how many times have we seen aircraft much larger and with two highly skilled pilots ball up an airplane on an instrument approach.

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3WE
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby 3WE » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:12 am

...and how many times have we seen aircraft much larger and with two highly skilled pilots ball up an airplane on an instrument approach.
not nearly as many times as persons flying high-performance, IFR-capable singles.
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VectorForFood
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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby VectorForFood » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:24 pm

...and how many times have we seen aircraft much larger and with two highly skilled pilots ball up an airplane on an instrument approach.
not nearly as many times as persons flying high-performance, IFR-capable singles.
Where's the like button

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Re: ...crash...SR22...

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:48 pm

Here's the prelim from the NTSB:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief ... 5028&key=1

And here's the approach plate:

http://dtpp.myairplane.com/pdfs/NC-3/00604IL14.PDF

So, now we know the accident happened during the missed approach procedure, we also know that he was able to complete a roughly 160deg left turn in only 30 seconds or less, so we know he was turning a lot faster than standard rate. We also know that he didn't climb as 30 seconds or less after requesting the missed approach he found the ground.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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3WE
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Parlour talk

Postby 3WE » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:30 am

Might bet a beer that the pilot was fatigued- it was midnight.

Might even bet a photo of a coke and a bag of peanuts that the pilot had a tiring, extended workout on a flight in showers and significant IMC.

...contributing factors.
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