Asiana 777 at SFO

An open discussion of aviation safety related issues.

Moderators: FrankM, el, Dmmoore

User avatar
ocelot
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:26 pm
Location: /bin/cat

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby ocelot » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:24 am

The video definitely shows that the plane did a 360 (not all that flat either...) and it's clearly CCW. Meanwhile,
There are some interesting hi-res shots of the sea wall, debris trail and final resting place of the aircraft. The ground marks here are very revealing and it looks like the nosewheel seemed to leave a telling black mark throughout.
Link?

The video also has a white feature behind the plane just before it reaches the runway that might be from dragging something in the water. Or it might not be, it's hard to tell. It also looks like the tail just disintegrates around the time the A/C reaches the threshold.

If the bottom of the fuselage slammed into the seawall going mostly forwards without much downward component, it wouldn't necessarily cause the usual structural sequelae of a tailstrike, especially since it looks like the impact was heavy enough to shatter the hull. This is my current guess as to what happened.

I'd still like to know if the engine that came to rest on the other side of the runway was the #1 or #2 engine though. Depending on what happened when, either is plausible.

(As for why, there doesn't seem to be much alternative to "the crew stuffed it"; why the crew stuffed it is always an interesting question but there's nothing whatsoever to go on at this stage...)

User avatar
Gabriel
Posts: 3699
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:55 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Gabriel » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:35 am

So, my guess (c'mon, we need a lot of opinions and especulations to make this page go back to life) is that this pilots were very comfortable with the automatization of the airplane, and not used to land it manually, without the ILS. So, they noticed too late that they were short, low and slow, and could only try to increase power and raise the nose.
I agree. However I have a problem understanding the "mechanics" of the events.

Based on the sketchy numbers of FlightAware (you can look at http://forums.jetphotos.net/showpost.ph ... tcount=128 for a rough analysis I made with them), they were continuously slowing down for at least the last 80 seconds and the sink rate and descent gradient were continuously reduced for the last 50 seconds or so. (This means that the approach was never stabilized so, to begin with, they should have gone around by 1000ft or 500ft depending on the company policy, but that's another story).

That is strongly indicative that neither the A/T nor the A/P were engaged, which is consistent with what you've said.

However, this opens another enigma.
For the speed to decay along 80 seconds in manual flight, it means that the pilot has to be applying incraeasing amounts of nose-up inputs and pull-up force.
They could have done it with the trim ( so replace the above for very frequent nose-up trim inputs along 80 seconds), but only to a point.
The 777, wile FBW, follows a different law than the Airbus. The 777 retains the speed stability that Airbus traded for load factor stability. In an Airbus you don't need to pull up or re-trim to compensate for a decaying speed. The FBW will do it alone (to keep the load factor at 1G) very much like the autopilot would do in any plane.
Not so in the tri7. When in normal law, the autotrim effectively works like a speed selector, actually changing the speed selected in the Autopilot. The autotrim will compensate for changes in the CG or configuration, but not for changes in speed. If the airspeed decays, the trim is kept and the nose goes down, very much like in a non-FBW plane. So it would have taken manual trim input to keep the plane slowing down. And then that would have worked only to a point.
As said, in normal law the trim effectively works as a speed slector, changing the speed selected in the AP. And there is a minimum speed you can select in the AP (and hence with the trim) which is called, go figure, Minimum Selectable Speed. This speed is not much below Vref, and has a margin over the stickshaker speed.
So the pilot had to pull on the yoke to slow down to a speed below the minimum selectable speed.
Not only that, but the 777 has envelope protection. It is not a hard pilot-proof envelope protection like in the Airbus, since it's overridable with enough effort, but it is there. It works by increasing disproportionately the pull-up force needed to increase the AoA beyond a certain point (as the plane approaches the stickshaker AoA and beyond).
So, it should have been a lot of work and effort to crash this plane in the way they did.

EDIT: I couldn't attach the graph here, but posting in in JP gave me the chance to link it as an internet image
Image

Chris Foss
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Chris Foss » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:09 am

The video definitely shows that the plane did a 360 (not all that flat either...) and it's clearly CCW. Meanwhile,
There are some interesting hi-res shots of the sea wall, debris trail and final resting place of the aircraft. The ground marks here are very revealing and it looks like the nosewheel seemed to leave a telling black mark throughout.
Link?

The video also has a white feature behind the plane just before it reaches the runway that might be from dragging something in the water. Or it might not be, it's hard to tell. It also looks like the tail just disintegrates around the time the A/C reaches the threshold.

If the bottom of the fuselage slammed into the seawall going mostly forwards without much downward component, it wouldn't necessarily cause the usual structural sequelae of a tailstrike, especially since it looks like the impact was heavy enough to shatter the hull. This is my current guess as to what happened.

I'd still like to know if the engine that came to rest on the other side of the runway was the #1 or #2 engine though. Depending on what happened when, either is plausible.

(As for why, there doesn't seem to be much alternative to "the crew stuffed it"; why the crew stuffed it is always an interesting question but there's nothing whatsoever to go on at this stage...)
http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reute ... ASIANA.JPG

Having now seen the video of the actual crash, and looking at the nose gear mark on the hi res photo above, it looks like he did indeed rotate 360 degrees left (anticlockwise) , not right.

Notice the marks left by the No1 engine which suggest detachment at high thrust. It follows a non linear path so must have been tumbling.

No2 is close to its mount on the starboard wing and looks to have detached as the aircraft finally settled down.. flopped down actually.

Look closer right before and on the black box area near the threshold and you can just see the engine and fuselage impact marks marks.

Chris Foss
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Chris Foss » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:18 am

With the left (No1) engine detached and the right still at high thrust, this may have been the cause of the rapid port yaw and 360 rotation which also led to a port wing high attitude during the spin.

Ironically, this could have slowed the aircraft down considerably and dissipated the energy enough to reduce the damage and increase survivability.

One of the odd advantages of making, flying and inevitably crashing lots of RC model aircraft is that you see the behaviour of air frames under these extreme conditions.

User avatar
Rabbi O'Genius
Posts: 770
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:37 am
Location: Hauts de Seine

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:41 am

The fire damage seems a bit surprising - the wings (fuel tanks?) seem completely unscathed, the cabin appears to have burnt from the inside,
yet almost all the passengers evacuated safely.

See this aerial photo http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/73 ... -crash.jpg

Any thoughts?
......never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. – John Donne

GlennAB1
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby GlennAB1 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:14 am

Maybe the engine fire burned through the fuselage?
you still have to find a crew willing to fly this "barely airworthy" heap
no such thing as "barely airworthy" it's either Airworthy or Not
100% incorrect Ever hear of Ferry Permit? issued for Non airworthy aircraft
LOL

GlennAB1
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby GlennAB1 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:19 am

Where are the freaky-ass plane spotters when you need then? When there is no crash, they are whacking each other off and snapping 30 frames per second at the perimeter fer chrissssakes.
Then? Talk about freaky! Ed, you need to go hang out with ITS and do some whacking.
you still have to find a crew willing to fly this "barely airworthy" heap
no such thing as "barely airworthy" it's either Airworthy or Not
100% incorrect Ever hear of Ferry Permit? issued for Non airworthy aircraft
LOL

User avatar
ocelot
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:26 pm
Location: /bin/cat

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby ocelot » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am

That is much clearer than anything else I'd seen, thanks.

So, yeah, the engine that ended up on the right hand side of the runway must have been the #1; the track leads straight (ish) to it. (Without that evidence it could have been the other way around, if both had detached at touchdown and gone on ahead.)

It looks like the swerve started at about the same point the engine detached; but I don't think we can tell whether that's cause or effect. Or both, as in the swerve started, the sideways load on the engine pylon caused it to separate, and then the differential thrust turned the swerve into a full spinout.

It does appear that the main debris trail leading from the seawall must be the track of the (rear) fuselage; it doesn't, however, really line up with the nose gear track, which suggests that the A/C was already skewed to port by quite a bit when it hit and the nose came down. And I guess the debris trail may just extend forwards from the impact point rather than representing the track of anything in particular. There's also what looks like a scorch mark to port of it; not sure what to make of that.

I too have seen some additional stuff since I last posted, and it looks like a substantial chunk of the bottom half of the fuselage underneath the remaining part of the aft cabin is missing (though it's not obvious from most of the photo angles) ... at the rear pressure bulkhead it looks like only the upper half of the tube is left. I wonder if the cabin floor is still intact there or not. In any case it looks pretty clear that they scraped off a big chunk of the aft fuselage on the seawall. Not your average tailstrike...

User avatar
ocelot
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:26 pm
Location: /bin/cat

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby ocelot » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:25 am

The fire damage seems a bit surprising - the wings (fuel tanks?) seem completely unscathed, the cabin appears to have burnt from the inside,
yet almost all the passengers evacuated safely.

See this aerial photo http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/73 ... -crash.jpg

Any thoughts?
I thought so at first; but look at this one, and notice where the engine is:

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/ ... _Cras7.JPG

GlennAB1
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby GlennAB1 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:33 am

I Heard This Guy Only Had 43 Hours On The Plane!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What A Idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, at some point, every pilot had 43 hours in each type where they eventually accumulated 43 hours or more.
Yeah... the guy has 10,000 hrs. total time, only 43 hrs. as 777 capt? Is that a big deal? Well maybe, if he's letting the FO land and he doesn't recognize they are in trouble before it's too late.
you still have to find a crew willing to fly this "barely airworthy" heap
no such thing as "barely airworthy" it's either Airworthy or Not
100% incorrect Ever hear of Ferry Permit? issued for Non airworthy aircraft
LOL

GlennAB1
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby GlennAB1 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:01 am

Co-pilot Lee Jeong-min, who has 3,220 hours with the Boeing 777 and a total of 12,387 hours of flying experience, was helping Capt. Lee Kang-kook who has 9,793 hours of flying experience, but only 43 hours with the Boeing 777 jet. What's wrong with that picture?
you still have to find a crew willing to fly this "barely airworthy" heap
no such thing as "barely airworthy" it's either Airworthy or Not
100% incorrect Ever hear of Ferry Permit? issued for Non airworthy aircraft
LOL

User avatar
monchavo
Site Admin
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:21 am

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby monchavo » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:41 am

I smell a big lawsuit brewing.
____
Join the airdisaster Discord - https://discord.gg/A59Vdw73ET

Ed
Posts: 795
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:27 am

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Ed » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:10 am

Where are the freaky-ass plane spotters when you need then? When there is no crash, they are whacking each other off and snapping 30 frames per second at the perimeter fer chrissssakes.
Then? Talk about freaky! Ed, you need to go hang out with ITS and do some whacking.
You are SO cool!

User avatar
ocelot
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:26 pm
Location: /bin/cat

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby ocelot » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:21 pm

Co-pilot Lee Jeong-min, who has 3,220 hours with the Boeing 777 and a total of 12,387 hours of flying experience, was helping Capt. Lee Kang-kook who has 9,793 hours of flying experience, but only 43 hours with the Boeing 777 jet. What's wrong with that picture?
Being filtered through the popular press, I think.

avherald this morning says:
On Jul 8th South Korea's Ministry of Transport reported the captain (43, ATPL, 9,793 hours total) of the ill-fated flight was still under supervision doing his first landing into San Francisco on a Boeing 777, although he had 29 landings into San Francisco on other aircraft types before. He was supervised by a training captain with 3,220 hours on the Boeing 777, all responsibilities are with the training captain.

User avatar
Gabriel
Posts: 3699
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:55 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Gabriel » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:07 pm

Also, according to Asiana, among the types that he flew to SFO was the 747.
So it's not like he had 9700 hours in a King Air and suddenly jumped to a 777 Captain position.

GlennAB1
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby GlennAB1 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:28 pm

Where are the freaky-ass plane spotters when you need then? When there is no crash, they are whacking each other off and snapping 30 frames per second at the perimeter fer chrissssakes.
Then? Talk about freaky! Ed, you need to go hang out with ITS and do some whacking.
You are SO cool!
I was really expection a very cool calutron or pancakes response.
you still have to find a crew willing to fly this "barely airworthy" heap
no such thing as "barely airworthy" it's either Airworthy or Not
100% incorrect Ever hear of Ferry Permit? issued for Non airworthy aircraft
LOL

User avatar
Sickbag
Posts: 2969
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: Spine-fuhrer of Hoboken

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Sickbag » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:06 pm

I'm surprised no one has supported my 'good ship lolly pop theory'. if any of you so called 'experts' bothered to study the video closely you would see that the aircraft is in level cruise flight at less then 50ft.with no ill effects to either the crew ,passengers or the aircraft.However the pilots in the clip appear to be American rather then Asian and I think this may be the root of the problem
2022: The year of the Squid Singularity

User avatar
3WE
Posts: 8251
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:37 pm
Location: Flyover, America

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby 3WE » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:02 am

Where are the freaky-ass plane spotters when you need then? When there is no crash, they are whacking each other off and snapping 30 frames per second at the perimeter fer chrissssakes.
You fail to realize that the Asiana livery is pretty dull.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

User avatar
3WE
Posts: 8251
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:37 pm
Location: Flyover, America

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby 3WE » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:11 am

Also, according to Asiana, among the types that he flew to SFO was the 747.
So it's not like he had 9700 hours in a King Air and suddenly jumped to a 777 Captain position.
I just don't see blaming this on experience with the aircraft type.

Whether its a 172, or 777- you have a target airspeed, and (in this case) a visual approach aid.

...and with either aircraft, if you don't monitor airspeed, and are normally slowing up anyway, it's awful easy to gently ease the nose up- especially if you are bumping a switch on the yoke instead of yanking...and wind up on short short final running out of airspeed, altitude and ideas.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

User avatar
Peminu
Posts: 563
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:00 am
Location: AirDisaster.info Island

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Peminu » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:36 am

Parlor talking (PLEASE DO A LOT OF THIS).

This crash makes me remember the one one near Amsterdam.

In that case some instruments were failing.

But it could have easily been avoided by just FLYING THE AIRPLANE BY THE F... PILOTS.

Fortunately, little casualties (even when one is too much on both accidents), But..should we tolerate this kind of events?

How can you filter bad pilots from getting there, particulary now with all this human rights movements and airlines that don't want to pay experienced pilots like FB?
Just another cast away from AD.com that reached AD.info island.

User avatar
Procede
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:40 am

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Procede » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:31 am

Stalling just before landing after a glide slope interception from above while fully relying on a non-functioning auto throttle does seem a common theme with TK@AMS.

User avatar
ocelot
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:26 pm
Location: /bin/cat

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby ocelot » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:22 am

It occurred to me today to wonder how much visibility you get over the glareshield in a 777, and in particular whether the nose-up attitude they were in would have interfered with seeing where they were going. Or, perhaps more interestingly, combined with some other effect to create a false situational awareness.

For example, if you sink below the glideslope but also pitch up a matching amount, the runway might stay in more or less the same place on the windscreen, and if this place was along the bottom of the windscreen you might not get enough depth cues from the visible surrounding terrain to realize you've gone off track. Particularly if what you're seeing matches what you expect to be seeing as a result of some other wrong idea.

I'm not sure that's really a plausible scenario, but whatever, i'm sure flyboy will laugh at me if it isn't so it won't distract anyone else.

However, none of that explains the failure to stabilize the approach or watch the airspeed. This is starting to remind me of the Luxair crash... unless there turns out to be some kind of instrumentation or avionics issue we haven't heard about yet.

Chris Foss
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:36 am

The view of the runway would have been low in the screen because of their attitude, but if I can stand on the ramp 30ft in front of a 777 and still see the pilots' faces, then I would say that their view is unrestricted even beyond the stall.

The shape of the runway is an issue since it was trained into me what it should look like on a standard approach. They must have been looking at a slither of tarmac for a long time, at the very least a 'squashed' view which is yet another indication of being very low on the GS.

The runway being low in the screen would also be a strong indicator that their AoA was very high.

These are external visual clues that even without instrumentation and systems should have set off all the alarm bells and reactions. But I still hear no sense of concern on the RT exchange with ATC just 40 seconds before impact and when their approach was neither stabilized nor on the GS.

Its hard not to be judgmental of such a performance, especially when kids have died, but lets see what the CVR and DFDR reveal about circumstances before we string them up too high.

User avatar
3WE
Posts: 8251
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:37 pm
Location: Flyover, America

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby 3WE » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:53 pm

The runway being low in the screen would also be a strong indicator that their AoA was very high.
Hard to put this into words...but I assume these pilots have great perspective... Whether it's a 4 degree approach or a 2 degree approach, they know where the plane was aiming, and I'm betting that they were aiming at a reasonable touchdown zone right up to the final few seconds (even though they were quite low).

I hate to call on MSFS experience, (and confess that I love the act of landing a plane- and have been faking it a lot with my $40.00 unlimited landing / any aircraft special ad nauseum and on an MD-80 just to spite Dummy Pilot ;) )...

Many many times, I have conducted generally excellent, totally visual approaches- aiming at the tdze, reducing descent rate, slowing to final approach speed...

This includes steep approaches and shallow approaches and approaches watching a VASI-PAPI or following a glide slope...

But hell, it's a game, I don't have a co pilot, and maybe I'm drinking a beer and I'm not doing a proper intense instrument scan.

I can't count the times my generally excellent approach winds up in a low energy state because I slightly misjudged my roundout / slow up / energy state.

Add to this that it has happened before for real (and to airline pilots!)

Now, my game has no seat of the pants feed back...but then again, a giant-ass 777 and a big cushy pilots chair and a sunny day with light winds...who says those pilots really get good seat of the pants feedback?

Anyway- my bottom line is that "the position of the runway on the windscreen" may not resonate as much as "I am aiming for the TDZE" (on MSFS I theres an adjusment on where you are sitting....It causes drastic chages in the position of the runway on the windscreen- but I still see where the plane is heading.)

Instead of worrying about where the runway is on the windscreen- they really should have been worrying about airspeed and the PAPI- but apparently not...
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

Chris Foss
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

Postby Chris Foss » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:16 pm

Instead of worrying about where the runway is on the windscreen- they really should have been worrying about airspeed and the PAPI- but apparently not...
Without a doubt, but it is just another indication to the pilot. Even with only 43hrs on type, it should say something to the pilot. As you say, not as much as all the other indicators.

On any approach, I guess I look at the ASI once every 5-10 seconds.

As an instructor in many things, I often let the student continue into a mistake or irregular situation to see how they recover or if they spot it themselves and so the experience burns a little deeper, but not to the point of stuffing 300 people into the ground. There may be an element of this here and the instructing pilot may have just let it go on too long. Seems impossible that he didn't realise what was going on at all.


Return to “Aviation Safety Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Semrush [Bot] and 2 guests