Spot the low number in this one
Moderators: FrankM, el, Dmmoore
Spot the low number in this one
Todays accident report is brought to you by the number 292
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... 009-14.pdf
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... 009-14.pdf
-
- Posts: 850
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:19 am
Re: Spot the low number in this one
I would agree that the experience of th F/O was alarmingly low.
However, I'm more concerned about this quote:
I want to know if there is a Butt Splice on my plane........
Not that I'm a Boeing vs Airbus guy, but if they were in a Boeing and the training Captain wanted to quickly correct a misguided control input from the F/O, he wouldn't have to remember hit the 'take over' button inthe the heat of battle. He would have pushed his yoke forward and it would have worked.
However, I'm more concerned about this quote:
.The lower fuselage skin, frames and butt splice between frames 67 and 72 were abraded by contact with the runway
I want to know if there is a Butt Splice on my plane........
Not that I'm a Boeing vs Airbus guy, but if they were in a Boeing and the training Captain wanted to quickly correct a misguided control input from the F/O, he wouldn't have to remember hit the 'take over' button inthe the heat of battle. He would have pushed his yoke forward and it would have worked.
Re: Spot the low number in this one
...and to think, some of us sometimes get a little fixated on overly enthusiastic back pressure.
Regarding 292 hours, it always inspires the thought "Gee manitly, I could do that" (including grinding the butt splice)
Regarding 292 hours, it always inspires the thought "Gee manitly, I could do that" (including grinding the butt splice)
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
Re: Spot the low number in this one
Can this be repaired by the insertion of a butt plug?
2022: The year of the Squid Singularity
Re: Spot the low number in this one
Yes, but the X-Box does not have a big-ass steering wheel mounted on top of a long column, making the transition an extremely foreign affair for younger pilots....Boeing... He would have pushed his yoke forward and it would have worked.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
- flyboy2548m
- Posts: 4391
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
- Location: Ormond Beach, FL
Re: Spot the low number in this one
I like how 138 of his 292 hours was in the 'Bus, nearly half his TT.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
- tds
- Posts: 937
- Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:55 pm
- Location: ...a city of Southern efficiency and Northern charm
Re: Spot the low number in this one
At least as far as I understand it, pushing the stick forward would have some effect in the Airbus too, but without pushing "Priority" the two positions will be summed - effectively averaged, if they are in different directions - with an audible warning for the disagreement. I would imagine that a training Captain monitoring the final approach of a very green FO should be spring-loaded to hit "Priority" if necessary.Not that I'm a Boeing vs Airbus guy, but if they were in a Boeing and the training Captain wanted to quickly correct a misguided control input from the F/O, he wouldn't have to remember hit the 'take over' button inthe the heat of battle. He would have pushed his yoke forward and it would have worked.
Presumably Ike could explain in more detail if I have this wrong.
In the Boeings, the situation is that whoever pushes / pulls hardest wins (i.e. the yokes are physically coupled), right?
Seems amazing that you can get a job flying an airliner from ~150 hours.
A discussion that probably applies to almost all crashes.
...but sometimes......should be...
...and then what...
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
- flyboy2548m
- Posts: 4391
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
- Location: Ormond Beach, FL
Re: Spot the low number in this one
He could, if someone asked him to.Presumably Ike could explain in more detail if I have this wrong.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
Re: Spot the low number in this one
Ike, please give us a summary of the workings of the Airbus FBW side-stick control systems that would be relevant to this situation of a 'trainee' pilot pulling up too much and a captain trying to counteract that.
Also, I was somewhat surprised at how little angle it took to drag the butt splice.
I sort of always thought that your plane seemed so tall with it's big-intake under slung engines and a nice upslope on the tail with a tail strike being much much more likely in Dummy's low-rider, Spetupally? stretched DC-9.
Thanks.
Also, I was somewhat surprised at how little angle it took to drag the butt splice.
I sort of always thought that your plane seemed so tall with it's big-intake under slung engines and a nice upslope on the tail with a tail strike being much much more likely in Dummy's low-rider, Spetupally? stretched DC-9.
Thanks.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
- flyboy2548m
- Posts: 4391
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
- Location: Ormond Beach, FL
Re: Spot the low number in this one
Firstly, 12.3deg is not "little angle" for an airplane that seldom needs much more then 5deg of pitch in the flare. In fact, somewhere between 7.5 and 8.0deg the airplane starts screaming "PITCH! PITCH! PITCH!" So, they really yanked on it in this case.Ike, please give us a summary of the workings of the Airbus FBW side-stick control systems that would be relevant to this situation of a 'trainee' pilot pulling up too much and a captain trying to counteract that.
Also, I was somewhat surprised at how little angle it took to drag the butt splice.
I sort of always thought that your plane seemed so tall with it's big-intake under slung engines and a nice upslope on the tail with a tail strike being much much more likely in Dummy's low-rider, Spetupally? stretched DC-9.
Thanks.
Secondly, while it's always easy to pick on the low-timer, the only tailstrike I'm aware of at my airline happened with a very experienced crew...
Finally, with regards to this whole FBW thing. If both sidesticks are being manipulated, the airplane screams "DUAL INPUT! DUAL INPUT!" This is a cue to the CA to press the takeover button, and for the F/O to let go of his sidestick. Had the CA pressed the takeover button, a "PRIORITY LEFT" aural would have been heard.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
Re: Spot the low number in this one
With regards dual inputs, on an ATR-72 this is what can happen ...
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/inv ... 4-032.aspx
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/inv ... 4-032.aspx
the first officer used touch control steering and manually pitched the aircraft up. The airspeed increased again and then both the first officer and captain pulled on the control column. Shortly after, when the vertical load factor was increasing through 1.8 g, the first officer began to push the control column. The differential force on the control column that resulted from the captain and first officer applying an opposing force exceeded the differential force required to generate a pitch disconnect. Each pilot was then controlling the elevator on their side of the aircraft in opposite directions for a brief period before the first officer released his control column.
The aircraft manufacturer inspected the aircraft and found broken carbon plies, cracked joint sealant, and deformation in and around the area where the horizontal stabiliser attaches to the vertical stabiliser (Figures 2 and 3). There was also some minor damage to the rudder. The damage was assessed as being consistent with an overstress condition. Subject to further assessment and non-destructive testing, the aircraft manufacturer recommended replacement of the horizontal stabiliser, elevators, and vertical stabiliser.
Re: Spot the low number in this one
There was an updated report on this incident. Note the angle of the tailplane relative to the wing ...With regards dual inputs, on an ATR-72 this is what can happen ...
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/inv ... 4-032.aspx
the first officer used touch control steering and manually pitched the aircraft up. The airspeed increased again and then both the first officer and captain pulled on the control column. Shortly after, when the vertical load factor was increasing through 1.8 g, the first officer began to push the control column. The differential force on the control column that resulted from the captain and first officer applying an opposing force exceeded the differential force required to generate a pitch disconnect. Each pilot was then controlling the elevator on their side of the aircraft in opposite directions for a brief period before the first officer released his control column.
The aircraft manufacturer inspected the aircraft and found broken carbon plies, cracked joint sealant, and deformation in and around the area where the horizontal stabiliser attaches to the vertical stabiliser (Figures 2 and 3). There was also some minor damage to the rudder. The damage was assessed as being consistent with an overstress condition. Subject to further assessment and non-destructive testing, the aircraft manufacturer recommended replacement of the horizontal stabiliser, elevators, and vertical stabiliser.
Re: Spot the low number in this one
Hmm... is the old "I have the aircraft" / "your aircraft" routine no longer in fashion?
HR consultant, Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc.
Re: Spot the low number in this one
Perhaps there would be fewer incidents if they changed it to "ONE OF YOU DUMBA$$ES LET GO OF THE STICK!"If both sidesticks are being manipulated, the airplane screams "DUAL INPUT! DUAL INPUT!"
HR consultant, Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc.
- flyboy2548m
- Posts: 4391
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
- Location: Ormond Beach, FL
Re: Spot the low number in this one
It is. We say "I have control/you have control" which is close enough.Hmm... is the old "I have the aircraft" / "your aircraft" routine no longer in fashion?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
- flyboy2548m
- Posts: 4391
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
- Location: Ormond Beach, FL
Re: Spot the low number in this one
Especially since the airplane already calls you a retard.Perhaps there would be fewer incidents if they changed it to "ONE OF YOU DUMBA$$ES LET GO OF THE STICK!"If both sidesticks are being manipulated, the airplane screams "DUAL INPUT! DUAL INPUT!"
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
- flyboy2548m
- Posts: 4391
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
- Location: Ormond Beach, FL
Re: Spot the low number in this one
That's not going to be cheap...There was an updated report on this incident. Note the angle of the tailplane relative to the wing ...
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
Re: Spot the low number in this one
Unfortunately, traditional cowboy idiocy is all too common...It is. We say "I have control/you have control" which is close enough.Hmm... is the old "I have the aircraft" / "your aircraft" routine no longer in fashion?
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests