Spot the low number in this one

[reubee]

Todays accident report is brought to you by the number 292

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... 009-14.pdf

[Dummy Pilot]

I would agree that the experience of th F/O was alarmingly low.

However, I'm more concerned about this quote:

The lower fuselage skin, frames and butt splice between frames 67 and 72 were abraded by contact with the runway

.

I want to know if there is a Butt Splice on my plane........

Not that I'm a Boeing vs Airbus guy, but if they were in a Boeing and the training Captain wanted to quickly correct a misguided control input from the F/O, he wouldn't have to remember hit the 'take over' button inthe the heat of battle. He would have pushed his yoke forward and it would have worked.

[3WE]

...and to think, some of us sometimes get a little fixated on overly enthusiastic back pressure.

Regarding 292 hours, it always inspires the thought "Gee manitly, I could do that" (including grinding the butt splice)

[Sickbag]

Can this be repaired by the insertion of a butt plug?

[3WE]

...Boeing... He would have pushed his yoke forward and it would have worked.

Yes, but the X-Box does not have a big-ass steering wheel mounted on top of a long column, making the transition an extremely foreign affair for younger pilots.

[flyboy2548m]

I like how 138 of his 292 hours was in the 'Bus, nearly half his TT.

[tds]

Not that I'm a Boeing vs Airbus guy, but if they were in a Boeing and the training Captain wanted to quickly correct a misguided control input from the F/O, he wouldn't have to remember hit the 'take over' button inthe the heat of battle. He would have pushed his yoke forward and it would have worked.

At least as far as I understand it, pushing the stick forward would have some effect in the Airbus too, but without pushing "Priority" the two positions will be summed - effectively averaged, if they are in different directions - with an audible warning for the disagreement. I would imagine that a training Captain monitoring the final approach of a very green FO should be spring-loaded to hit "Priority" if necessary.

Presumably Ike could explain in more detail if I have this wrong.

In the Boeings, the situation is that whoever pushes / pulls hardest wins (i.e. the yokes are physically coupled), right?

Seems amazing that you can get a job flying an airliner from ~150 hours.

[3WE]

...should be...

...but sometimes...

...and then what...

[flyboy2548m]

Presumably Ike could explain in more detail if I have this wrong.

He could, if someone asked him to.

[3WE]

Ike, please give us a summary of the workings of the Airbus FBW side-stick control systems that would be relevant to this situation of a 'trainee' pilot pulling up too much and a captain trying to counteract that.

Also, I was somewhat surprised at how little angle it took to drag the butt splice.

I sort of always thought that your plane seemed so tall with it's big-intake under slung engines and a nice upslope on the tail with a tail strike being much much more likely in Dummy's low-rider, Spetupally? stretched DC-9.

Thanks.

[flyboy2548m]

Ike, please give us a summary of the workings of the Airbus FBW side-stick control systems that would be relevant to this situation of a 'trainee' pilot pulling up too much and a captain trying to counteract that.

Also, I was somewhat surprised at how little angle it took to drag the butt splice.

I sort of always thought that your plane seemed so tall with it's big-intake under slung engines and a nice upslope on the tail with a tail strike being much much more likely in Dummy's low-rider, Spetupally? stretched DC-9.

Thanks.

Firstly, 12.3deg is not "little angle" for an airplane that seldom needs much more then 5deg of pitch in the flare. In fact, somewhere between 7.5 and 8.0deg the airplane starts screaming "PITCH! PITCH! PITCH!" So, they really yanked on it in this case.

Secondly, while it's always easy to pick on the low-timer, the only tailstrike I'm aware of at my airline happened with a very experienced crew...

Finally, with regards to this whole FBW thing. If both sidesticks are being manipulated, the airplane screams "DUAL INPUT! DUAL INPUT!" This is a cue to the CA to press the takeover button, and for the F/O to let go of his sidestick. Had the CA pressed the takeover button, a "PRIORITY LEFT" aural would have been heard.

[reubee]

With regards dual inputs, on an ATR-72 this is what can happen ...

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/inv ... 4-032.aspx

the first officer used touch control steering and manually pitched the aircraft up. The airspeed increased again and then both the first officer and captain pulled on the control column. Shortly after, when the vertical load factor was increasing through 1.8 g, the first officer began to push the control column. The differential force on the control column that resulted from the captain and first officer applying an opposing force exceeded the differential force required to generate a pitch disconnect. Each pilot was then controlling the elevator on their side of the aircraft in opposite directions for a brief period before the first officer released his control column.
The aircraft manufacturer inspected the aircraft and found broken carbon plies, cracked joint sealant, and deformation in and around the area where the horizontal stabiliser attaches to the vertical stabiliser (Figures 2 and 3). There was also some minor damage to the rudder. The damage was assessed as being consistent with an overstress condition. Subject to further assessment and non-destructive testing, the aircraft manufacturer recommended replacement of the horizontal stabiliser, elevators, and vertical stabiliser.

[reubee]

With regards dual inputs, on an ATR-72 this is what can happen ...

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/inv ... 4-032.aspx

the first officer used touch control steering and manually pitched the aircraft up. The airspeed increased again and then both the first officer and captain pulled on the control column. Shortly after, when the vertical load factor was increasing through 1.8 g, the first officer began to push the control column. The differential force on the control column that resulted from the captain and first officer applying an opposing force exceeded the differential force required to generate a pitch disconnect. Each pilot was then controlling the elevator on their side of the aircraft in opposite directions for a brief period before the first officer released his control column.
The aircraft manufacturer inspected the aircraft and found broken carbon plies, cracked joint sealant, and deformation in and around the area where the horizontal stabiliser attaches to the vertical stabiliser (Figures 2 and 3). There was also some minor damage to the rudder. The damage was assessed as being consistent with an overstress condition. Subject to further assessment and non-destructive testing, the aircraft manufacturer recommended replacement of the horizontal stabiliser, elevators, and vertical stabiliser.

There was an updated report on this incident. Note the angle of the tailplane relative to the wing ...

[elaw]

Hmm... is the old "I have the aircraft" / "your aircraft" routine no longer in fashion?

[elaw]

If both sidesticks are being manipulated, the airplane screams "DUAL INPUT! DUAL INPUT!"

Perhaps there would be fewer incidents if they changed it to "ONE OF YOU DUMBA$$ES LET GO OF THE STICK!"

[flyboy2548m]

Hmm... is the old "I have the aircraft" / "your aircraft" routine no longer in fashion?

It is. We say "I have control/you have control" which is close enough.

[flyboy2548m]

If both sidesticks are being manipulated, the airplane screams "DUAL INPUT! DUAL INPUT!"

Perhaps there would be fewer incidents if they changed it to "ONE OF YOU DUMBA$$ES LET GO OF THE STICK!"

Especially since the airplane already calls you a retard.

[flyboy2548m]

There was an updated report on this incident. Note the angle of the tailplane relative to the wing ...

That's not going to be cheap...

[3WE]

Hmm... is the old "I have the aircraft" / "your aircraft" routine no longer in fashion?

It is. We say "I have control/you have control" which is close enough.

Unfortunately, traditional cowboy idiocy is all too common...