Something besides psycological screening...

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3WE
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Something besides psycological screening...

Postby 3WE » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:08 pm

Ummmm....

Wouldn't it be EVEN MORE EFFICIENT and SAFER and EVEN CHEAPER to land for fuel stops?

Indeed: Fuel = weight = fuel consumption.

BUT

Flying a special refueling plane full of fuel is expensive (you'd have to hire more of those worthless, damn psycho-pilots), and somehow, I seems a tiny bit risky to do that super cool refueling stuff that the armed forces do with commercial passenger planes.

http://news.yahoo.com/refuelling-planes ... 25049.html
Geneva (AFP) - A system for re-fuelling passenger planes mid-air could slash the amount of kerosene needed for a long haul flight by nearly a quarter, researchers said Monday.

Kerosene reserves make up about a third of the weight on long distance passenger flights at take-off so reducing them and refuelling mid-air could mean huge savings, said the Zurich University of Applied Sciences (ZHAW), which participated in the study.

"The results of our collaborative research indicate a fuel burn reduction potential on isolated aircraft level between 11 and 23 percent for a typical 6,000 nautical miles flight with a payload of 250 passengers," the researchers said.

The Research for a Cruiser Enabled Air Transport Environment, or RECREATE, project said even the low-end of that scale "is usually considered as large in the aerospace industry."

The scientists, associated with nine different European research institutes, have for the past three years been studying the feasibility of civil air-to-air refuelling operations similar to those used for military aircraft.

The study said passenger flights could take off with less fuel and retank once they reach an altitude of 10,000 metres.

Refuelling planes would carry enough fuel to serve between three and five passenger aircraft at specific spots, like petrol stations in the sky, near the main airways and far from inhabited areas.

This would also reduce noise pollution near airports since planes make more noise the heavier they are at take-off, said Leonardo Mafriani, who heads the project for ZHAW.

The system would also allow for non-stop flights between destinations as far apart as Zurich and Sydney.

The researchers said they had used simulators to determine that the project is technically possible.

The RECREATE project also includes a second, and far more radical proposal: creating a sort of air-metro system, with giant aircraft circling the globe, and smaller "feeder aircraft" unloading passengers, luggage and waste midair and transporting them to destinations along the way.

The researchers acknowledge though that for the second part of the project, "neither airworthiness nor acceptance of the idea by the general public is within sight."
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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flyboy2548m
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Re: Something besides psycological screening...

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:53 am

I hope they took the fuel required to fly the tankers into account.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Robert Hilton
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Re: Something besides psycological screening...

Postby Robert Hilton » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:25 pm

I hope they took the fuel required to fly the tankers into account.
Operation Black Buck. 2 Vulcans loaded with 21 1000 pounders (1 mission a/c 1 spare) 11 Victor K2 tankers with 110,000 lb on board each to fly the mission to the Falklands islands. They still had too little fuel and required a scramble to get the last tanker back. Okay today, a tanker would carry somewhere between 250,000 and 330,000 lb so it could transfer more per mission. It would still cost quite alot. The refuelling profile might make a fair few passengers somewhat unsettled. Add to that various incidents that can happen, (hose whip, knocking off the probe, equipment failure, not finding tanker or receiver etc) it strikes me as being too many variables to make it acceptable. Cobham ltd have tried to sell this concept in various guises from the '20's up to the early '50 's and never really got it off the ground. It is a military requirement for very specific goals. For civilian work?

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reubee
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Re: Something besides psycological screening...

Postby reubee » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:28 am

Wouldn't it be EVEN MORE EFFICIENT and SAFER and EVEN CHEAPER to land for fuel stops?
Stopping halfway for fuel ...
- halves the life of an airplane when measured in cycles,
- lessens the distance crew can fly in a given duty
- adds to hotel costs if crew change at the fuel stop

Although going non-stop, I remember hearing a saying that went along the lines of for every extra 100kg of fuel taken for a long haul flight, you'll arrive with less than half of it.
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Robert Hilton
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Re: Something besides psycological screening...

Postby Robert Hilton » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:55 am

Agreed Reubee.
Engine start/stops
Cabin pressurisations
Landings (tyre-life)
Post/pre-flight checks
A whole host of extra cycles


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