Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000 Feet

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J
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Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000 Feet

Postby J » Wed May 27, 2015 2:56 pm

The Airbus Group NV A330-300 aircraft [photograph accompanying article shows an A380] was flying at 39,000 feet and was about three and a half hours into a flight from Singapore on May 23 when both engines lost power, though one unit regained normal operation “almost immediately,” the carrier said in a statement. SQ836, with 182 passengers and 12 crew, landed safely in Shanghai after regaining power.

“The pilots followed operational procedures to restore normal operation of the second engine by putting the aircraft into a controlled descent, before climbing again,” Singapore Air said in the statement. “The engines were thoroughly inspected and tested upon arrival in Shanghai with no anomalies detected.”

The airline, Airbus and U.K. engine-maker Rolls-Royce Holdings Plc all said they were working to determine the cause of the incident when contacted by Bloomberg.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... 9-000-feet

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3WE
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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby 3WE » Thu May 28, 2015 2:13 pm

I'd love to hear Flyboy or Dummy or even Gabriel comment...

...it seems that if you send enough water through an engine, it flames out. (And ignore the grossly over-obvious interpretation here- it seems this may be of some genuine operational significance.)

I also recall hearing of a 737 dead stick landing on a levee in New Orleans after a dual flame out in a heavy rainstorm.

Is there training on that? Some specific Evan rules on avoiding certain types of heavy rain?

(And not an Evan slam- there is an appropriate place for procedure.)

OR

...is it one of those statistically infinitesimal things that is adequately solved by re-starting and having nice off-airport landing areas and good Cowboy airmanship.
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elaw
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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby elaw » Thu May 28, 2015 5:14 pm

Not sure about the rain part, but I'm sure there's a "loss of all engine power" checklist the goal of which is to get the engines started again.

At some point during descent, I'd figure the PIC would be expected to use his/her judgement as to when restart efforts aren't going to work and to start operating the plane as a glider.
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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby Ancient Mariner » Fri May 29, 2015 11:11 am

3WE:
...it seems that if you send enough water through an engine, it flames out.
I suppose that's why water is used in fire fighting.
The real question is why they chose to carry on after the little mishap, instead of landing at nearest suitable. And why they went airborne again, with paying pax without identifying the problem, apparently.
Per

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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby 3WE » Fri May 29, 2015 1:21 pm

3WE:
...it seems that if you send enough water through an engine, it flames out.
I suppose that's why water is used in fire fighting.
The real question is why they chose to carry on after the little mishap, instead of landing at nearest suitable. And why they went airborne again, with paying pax without identifying the problem, apparently.
Per
Thanks, but No.

I am struggling to find the right words...

...It would appear that it's known that at some critical rainfall threshold, your engines flame out because of the water...

...and apparently it doesn't harm anything (other than perhaps some underwear)...

Therefore, check the gauges and keep flying; then a quick check of things on the ground and put her back in service.

The real question is: Is there some way (including Evan* procedures) to know and avoid extreme rainfall areas that risk causing flame outs.

*Jokes aside, I'm very serious in asking if this is a time and place where there should be 'a procedure' (or if Flyboy/Dummy might share some information regarding rainfall avoidance 'procedures').
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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby Verbal » Fri May 29, 2015 5:45 pm

(or if Flyboy/Dummy might share some information regarding rainfall avoidance 'procedures').
Umbrellas.
"I'm putting an end to this f*ckery." - Rayna Boyanov

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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby 3WE » Fri May 29, 2015 6:00 pm

(or if Flyboy/Dummy might share some information regarding rainfall avoidance 'procedures').
Umbrellas.
That was weak.

I said procedures.

:roll:

1) Look at radar.
2) Choose deviation (a. Left, b. Right).
3) Call ATC to request preferred deviation.
4) Wait for ATC's approval or 'counter offer'.
5) Adjust autopilot heading window/bug.
6) Return to crossword puzzle.

:mrgreen:
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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri May 29, 2015 8:54 pm

If there is some critical rainfall amount, above which the engines are "expected" to fail, I'm not aware of it. Even if there were one, just how is one to judge said amount when airborne, especially, say, at night?

This particular incident to me sounds more like some sort of a FADEC brainfart more so than a "rain-induced" flameout.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby 3WE » Fri May 29, 2015 11:02 pm

Thank you, and interesting comment on the FADEC.
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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat May 30, 2015 1:08 am

Of course it was interesting. I made it.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby 3WE » Sat May 30, 2015 2:14 pm

If there is some critical rainfall amount, above which the engines are "expected" to fail, I'm not aware of it. Even if there were one, just how is one to judge said amount when airborne, especially, say, at night?
Total ass hat parlour talk, but all those crazy, funky, beyond-red colors I see on weather radar (the intensity of radar returns is mostly correlated to the amount of liquid water present)...and then I dunno, our beloved turbine inlet temperature gauge (or some other engine indication) might give some clues that things are going south and that you should get the expletive out to some lighter rainfall.

...I'd assume one might be able to generate a set of useful guidelines...given that dual engine failures are a somewhat big event.

...or not (useful being the critical word).

I have learned to accept that things are pretty damn good and that a procedure can't exist for everything...but conversely, is it OK that you may someday fly into some heavy rain unaware of what it takes to drown out the fire in the boilers.
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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby Jorge » Sun May 31, 2015 12:02 am

the 737 was a dual flame out and yes Captain Carlos Dardano dead sticked his TACA Airlines 737 onto a levy in New Orleans for a prefect landing
La Vida Es Un Carnival- Celia Cruz

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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby Ancient Mariner » Sun May 31, 2015 6:25 am

If there is some critical rainfall amount, above which the engines are "expected" to fail, I'm not aware of it. Even if there were one, just how is one to judge said amount when airborne, especially, say, at night?

This particular incident to me sounds more like some sort of a FADEC brainfart more so than a "rain-induced" flameout.
Put 3 WE on a wing with a bucket, a ruler and a stopwatch. He will tell you when you , according to some mysterious numbers fromthe engine manufacturer., should change course or altitude.
Per

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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby Dummy Pilot » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:07 am

I am aware of at least two dual engine failures at my airline over the years.....both of them were operator error induced.

In a similar vein, perhaps this airliner continued its flight because there was nothing 'wrong' with the engines when they were shut down

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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby 3WE » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:38 am

Put 3 WE on a wing with a bucket, a ruler and a stopwatch. He will tell you when you , according to some mysterious numbers from the engine manufacturer., should change course or altitude.
Per
Not with Flyboy driving!

He'd four one oh it to deprive me of oxygen, or redline the thing so that insects and raindrops would really sting. :?

That being said, I will accept that there is no apparent problem with heavy rain causing engine flame outs, and go back to worrying about takeoffs with forgotten flaps and relentless pull ups.

Thanks.
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Re: Singapore Air Jet Loses Power on Both Engines at 39,000

Postby Ancient Mariner » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:17 am

I am aware of at least two dual engine failures at my airline over the years.....both of them were operator error induced.

In a similar vein, perhaps this airliner continued its flight because there was nothing 'wrong' with the engines when they were shut down
The "wrong" only materialises when the engines are started. ;)
Per


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