Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

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elaw
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Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby elaw » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:43 pm

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3WE
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby 3WE » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:48 pm

I blame "we".

We're (except Evan) always bitching that they focus too much on that magenta line and not enough on cowboy fundamentals like hand flying and looking out the window.
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Gabriel
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby Gabriel » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:19 pm

Déjà vu? Wasn't there another Delta A320 making exactly the same mistake at the same airport a few years ago?

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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby elaw » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:42 pm

According to this list: http://www.thirdamendment.com/WrongWay.pdf the next-most-recent was a Southwest 737 (which we all know is just an A320 without the xbox) that landed at PLK (M Graham Clark Downtown Airport in Branson, Missouri) instead of BKG (the "big" airport in Branson). I think in that incident, there was a greater danger in the form of a relatively short runway.
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Gabriel
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby Gabriel » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:37 pm

Found it. It was an A319, not an A320 (but that would be like saying that it was a 737-800 and not a -900), and it was Northwest, not Delta, although Northwest is now merged into Delta.
While rare, U.S. flights have occasionally landed at the wrong airports before.

In fact, a similar incident involving the same airports also occurred in 2004 when a Northwest Airlines A319 also mistakenly landed at Ellsworth.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/fl ... /86879086/

Maybe they should paint big white signs on the runway at Ellsworth AFB, just short of the numbers, saying "NOT KRAP".

EDIT: It is in http://www.thirdamendment.com/WrongWay.pdf too:
June 19, 2004 - A Northwest Airlines A319, bound for Rapid City, South Dakota (RAP),
mistakenly lands at Ellsworth Air Force Base.
Hint: CTRL+F "ells"

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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby 3WE » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:55 am

Question to Flyboy / Dummy / ITS / Any True Insider:

How often do you land without some sort of definitive, positive, hard, electronic guidance to the runway...(up and running as a back up- I know that visual approaches don't "use" that)

I know that sometimes the ILS is down, but isn't it good practice (and 99.9% the case) to have "miles to go" reading out on an integrated GPS navigation system, or DME or something?
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:56 pm

Question to Flyboy / Dummy / ITS / Any True Insider:

How often do you land without some sort of definitive, positive, hard, electronic guidance to the runway...(up and running as a back up- I know that visual approaches don't "use" that)
For all purposes never.
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3WE
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby 3WE » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:24 pm

Question to Flyboy / Dummy / ITS / Any True Insider:

How often do you land without some sort of definitive, positive, hard, electronic guidance to the runway...(up and running as a back up- I know that visual approaches don't "use" that)
For all purposes never.
Well then, we shouldn't be landing at the wrong place as much as we do.
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Gabriel
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby Gabriel » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:45 am

Well then, we shouldn't be landing at the wrong place as much as we do.
How much is "as much as we do"?

Your third amendment site lists 12 incidents in the last 10 years. How many (million) flights were there in that period?

Even if all the SOPs say to use nav data to crosscheck the right airport, that doesn't mean that, every a million flight, one crew will not forget to do so or will tune the navs as required but not may close attention to that.

We have much more near miss, incursions, altitude busts, not following clearance, etc. Not to mention engines failing or being shut down in flight, loss of cabin pressures (hopefully followed by an emergency descent), cabin smoke/fumes and busting minimums.

From all the dangers of flying, landing at the wrong airport is among the ones that concerns me the least, because it happens very seldom, and because chances are that you will walk away from such a landing (perhaps after another short hop and another landing at the intended destination).

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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby flyboy2548m » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:38 pm

From all the dangers of flying, landing at the wrong airport is among the ones that concerns me the least,...
That's a relief. I bet your buddy Evanie is fixing to hang himself over this by contrast.
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby elaw » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:52 pm

Nah... if you check at the other forum, you'll see that once again he's all in a tizzy because an aviator was found to be aviating.
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby flyboy2548m » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:19 pm

Yeah, I saw...
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby flyboy2548m » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:21 pm

Yeah, I saw...
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby 3WE » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:34 am

...an aviator was found to be aviating...
Any improvisation or deviations from acronym-laden procedures?
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:02 am

Breaking news:

Descending is inherently risky!
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby Not_Karl » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:38 am

Breaking news:

Descending is inherently risky!
CONCUR.
As far as I know, all crashes -aside from flying level into a mountain, failing to lift-off or mid-air collisions/explosions/disintegrations- were at the end of a descent -commanded or not-.
How many more tragedies need to happen before descending is banned?
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby elaw » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:34 am

Any improvisation or deviations from acronym-laden procedures?
Well the funny thing is, in spite of his outrage, "Captain E" has not documented any of same (in this case).
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby 3WE » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:03 pm

Any improvisation or deviations from acronym-laden procedures?
Well the funny thing is, in spite of his outrage, "Captain E" has not documented any of same (in this case).
Yesterday, I was busy flying the Vandelay Fertilizer Ram 1500 for 825 miles through a wide range of weather systems and headwinds in Flyover America and caught up last night.

I am inspired to share this picture I saw on another forum:
MJ Popcorn.jpg
MJ Popcorn.jpg (6.21 KiB) Viewed 1151 times
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:51 pm

Four minutes, folks. That's the magic number, apparently. Which is up from one minute.
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby 3WE » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:14 pm

Four minutes, folks. That's the magic number, apparently. Which is up from one minute.
...darn, would've sworn the Domestic Super Genius Airbus Pilot of the Millennium was an aeronautical engineerist...but then again, you're getting awfully improvisational...selecting a power and pitch that you are intimately familiar with while someone else checks the books....

...and, no "we" don't want to listen to Nav either.
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:56 pm

In recent times it's been with an increasing frequency that I've been getting reminded of the words of the great American philosopher Stewart Gilligan "Stewie" Griffin who said "it's like trying to play Marco Polo with Helen Keller".
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby Gabriel » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:57 pm

In recent times it's been with an increasing frequency that I've been getting reminded of the words of the great American philosopher Stewart Gilligan "Stewie" Griffin who said "it's like trying to play Marco Polo with Helen Keller".
I had to look up Helen Keller, laughed at the quote, and I felt bad for laughing.

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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:08 am

In recent times it's been with an increasing frequency that I've been getting reminded of the words of the great American philosopher Stewart Gilligan "Stewie" Griffin who said "it's like trying to play Marco Polo with Helen Keller".
I had to look up Helen Keller, laughed at the quote, and I felt bad for laughing.
Did you look up Stewie Griffin?
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3WE
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby 3WE » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:54 am

Did you look up Stewie Griffin?
He's a sick little bastard.

I like Brian much better and feel bad for his romantic failures toward Lois.

Flyboy, I would also invite you to request Runway 6 at Flyover...

It's the strangest deal...guys pass over all day long on the South downwind at 300-whatever degrees and 6 to 10,000 feet...then a random Southwest airliner comes by way low turning towards runway six...while a few minutes later, everyone's back going way out Northwest, across the river and back.

I guess it could be ATC being weird, but I tend to assume it's that nifty Southwest spirit saving a few gallons of kerosene and shooting a gap between those horribly busy triple parallel runways.

Yes, I would imagine that the 'traffic pattern' to SUS would impact things too.
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Gabriel
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Re: Aviate... communicate... what was that other thing?

Postby Gabriel » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:37 am

Did you look up Stewie Griffin?
Nah, I knew that one.


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