BAe 146 down near Medellin

[Gabriel]

Sounds more like a mechanic.

Right, it sounds very much that he was a mechanic.
This airline was basically a charter operator that was contracted for these kind of special flights, flying from and to airports where they don't have a base. So they take their own support crew with them (mechanics, dispatchers, etc...). There is a video of him being rescued and asking for his workmates that were on the plane. He is calling 3 different names, none of them was the pilot, one of them was the dispatcher (the one that argued with the Bolivian authorities for the flight plan objection). One is said to be another technician/mechanic. The third one, no info other than the name. The three died in the crash.

A flight attendant said that her and this technician were seated in the back of the plane, so no, he was not in the cockpit assisting the crew to "manage the multiple APUs".
(by the way, flyboy, I read in some comment that only 2 of the engines - 1 and 4 - have generators, so it would be 3 generators not five, but I have no idea if that comment is correct or not)

[flyboy2548m]

(by the way, flyboy, I read in some comment that only 2 of the engines - 1 and 4 - have generators, so it would be 3 generators not five, but I have no idea if that comment is correct or not)

That is indeed correct, in fact, there are some who refer to the mighty Avro as "the four-engine twin". (don't worry, you'll get that one in about a year).

[Gabriel]

(by the way, flyboy, I read in some comment that only 2 of the engines - 1 and 4 - have generators, so it would be 3 generators not five, but I have no idea if that comment is correct or not)

That is indeed correct, in fact, there are some who refer to the mighty Avro as "the four-engine twin". (don't worry, you'll get that one in about a year).

Well, that nickname makes a lot of sense especially if not just the generators, but other important systems (hydros, PACs...) are powered by only 2 of the engines.

Definitively it is not the size or ETOPS constrains what led to the 4-engines design. I seem to remember that, many years ago, I read somewhere that the idea was to keep a good second segment climb and net path climb gradient with one engine failed to be able to operate in small runways surrounded by obstacles or high terrain.

By the way, do you know what is the control system technology (cable, hydro...)? I would like to know how the loss of all the engines affected the flight controls. Not that it would necessarily make a lot of difference for a deadstick landing in a forest in the mountains at night. But crashing in control probably made a difference for the 6 survivors.

[flyboy2548m]

By the way, do you know what is the control system technology (cable, hydro...)?

Yes.

[3WE]

By the way, do you know what is the control system technology (cable, hydro...)?

Yes.

Total domination of Evan in a black and white thinking contest and procedures.

Yet, humor and underlying appreciation of fundamentals.



Since you know the answers, please tell us which engines power hydraulics and if there would be power for controls and backup if there was total engine failure.

Thanks.

[flyboy2548m]

Since you know the answers, please tell us which engines power hydraulics and if there would be power for controls and backup if there was total engine failure.

Thanks.

Why? He'll just disagree with me and run to Evan.

[Gabriel]

I've just found out in an accident report that the pitch control system is cable-pulley type which moves control tabs that provide the aerodynamic force to move the elevator (very much in the DC-9 way). It also has a sort override system where the same mechanism would move directly the elevator if strong enough forces are applied. The trim is also mechanical with a trim wheel (although there is an electric motor controlled by a trim switch or the AP) and an artificial feel system that is also mechanical. So it doesn't look that the engines being on or off would significantly affect the pitch control authority and feel.

I didn't find info regarding the ailerons and rudder, but my guess would be that at least the ailerons would be mechanical too. The rudder I don't know, since it has to be powerful enough to keep directional control with two engines on the same side at max thrust and the other 2 off.

Knowledge is one of the few things that you don't have anything less when you share some.

[flyboy2548m]

Wonnerful... Wonnerful.

[flyboy2548m]

Outta curiosity, Gabby, when did 125.0 become the emergency freq? Did I miss a NOTAM on that or what?

[3WE]

Out of further curiosity, what good is an emergency frequency to a transport category aircraft?....

I get it that maybe you are lost in Alaska in a Cub (or Greenland in a piston twin) and you call out to the big Dash-8 Airliner above so he can deploy flaps against Evan's recommendations and lead you to an airport...

...but really, what good does it do an Airliner to change to 121.5? (Taking a dangerous guess from my oft-inaccurate mental database)

Edit: Got it right...maybe...they really do need to get Wikipedia in the cockpit.

[3WE]

Out of further curiosity, what good is an emergency frequency to a transport category aircraft?...

...and I see, there, that Gabe's exact words were that you would not_tune to the emergency frequency...nevertheless, glad to know Flyboy is listening and willing to guide the Vandelay Fertilizer 182 to an airport (with flaps at his discretion).

[Gabriel]

Outta curiosity, Gabby, when did 125.0 become the emergency freq? Did I miss a NOTAM on that or what?

It never did and you didn't miss anything. 121.5 is still the right one. Sorry for my mistake.

[Rabbi O'Genius]

The witch hunt is underway.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38231774

[Gabriel]

The witch hunt is underway.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38231774

Except that the witch may be really a witch in this case.

[Rabbi O'Genius]

Indeed, and probably more than one witch.
Let's just hope that the understandable desire for closure/justice/revenge etc does not lead people to unduly focus on the responsibilities of the living.

[Not_Karl]

A local newspaper informs that LaMia made a flight lasting 4:27Hs and another of 4:32Hs. Chapecoense's flight crashed after 4:42Hs of flight.

[Gabriel]

A local newspaper informs that LaMia made a flight lasting 4:27Hs and another of 4:32Hs. Chapecoense's flight crashed after 4:42Hs of flight.

I am not surprised at all. Many workmates and friends that know that I am crazy about airplanes asked me haw is it possible that the pilot or the airline did this, and I tell them that I am sure it is not what they did this time, but what they used to do, the way they used to operate, their company culture.

You don't have a good airline with a good pilot that one day wakes up and deciding, out of nowhere, just to make just this flight with way less fuel than required.

[3WE]

A local newspaper informs that LaMia made a flight lasting 4:27Hs and another of 4:32Hs. Chapecoense's flight crashed after 4:42Hs of flight.

I am not surprised at all. Many workmates and friends that know that I am crazy about airplanes asked me haw is it possible that the pilot or the airline did this, and I tell them that I am sure it is not what they did this time, but what they used to do, the way they used to operate, their company culture.

You don't have a good airline with a good pilot that one day wakes up and deciding, out of nowhere, just to make just this flight with way less fuel than required.

I still struggle to believe that the flight PLANNED for arrival with 5 min of fuel.

I wonder if the goofy big tank + 4 little tank system that Evan described was used as an 'improper safety buffer'...that somehow they figured that if they rain the main tanks dry, the little tanks for each engine could get them to a fuel stop...and that they had never dipped into those tanks, even in spite of the other long flights...or something was amiss/over looked with them keeping track of all those tanks.

[Rabbi O'Genius]

"The evidence is conclusive, the direct responsibility of this event falls on the pilot and the airline company," Bolivia's Public Works and Services Minister Milton Claros told reporters. He oversees the country's aviation authority.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38389553

.....and maybe just a little responsibility falls on the aforementioned Bolivian Airline Authorities for permitting such cowboys to operate.