Cleared to land?

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3WE
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Cleared to land?

Postby 3WE » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:43 pm

Are we sure?
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flyboy2548m
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Re: Cleared to land?

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:46 pm

No.
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J
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Re: Cleared to land?

Postby J » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:21 pm

SFO Landing Incident Prompts Focus on Pilot Monitoring, CRM

In a safety alert prompted by the July 7 incident at San Francisco International Airport (SFO) in which an Air Canada Airbus A320 nearly landed on a crowded taxiway, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration is reiterating the importance of vigilant pilot monitoring and overall crew resource management (CRM) to maintain safe levels of situational awareness on the flight deck.

Approaching SFO at just before midnight, the pilots of the A320 received clearance to land on Runway 28 Right, but came within about 60 feet of touching down on the adjacent parallel taxiway. Four aircraft occupied the taxiway at the time: two United Airlines Boeing 787s, a United 737 and a Philippine Airlines Airbus A340.

This incident is an extreme example of incorrect surface approaches and landings,” the FAA said in the August 18 alert aimed at flight operations professionals. “This event highlights the importance of employing best practices for successful approaches and landings to the correct airport and runway.”

On the night of the incident, Runway 28 Left remained closed for construction, and several indications of that fact included a lighted X and an Automatic Terminal Information Service (ATIS) message noting the runway’s lights were not illuminated.

Preliminary NTSB reporting suggests the Air Canada pilots, who had lined up on the taxiway for at least 3 nautical miles, lost situational awareness. According to the NTSB, both the taxiway and the active runway were illuminated on “default settings,” including green centerline and blue edge lights on the taxiway, as well as white centerline and touchdown zone lights and green threshold and edge lights on the runway’s approach end.

At about 0.7 nautical miles out, the Air Canada crew queried ATC about “seeing lights on the runway,” NTSB said, and requested a cleared-to-land confirmation. ATC re-confirmed the clearance. Moments later, the crew in the United 787 sitting first on the taxiway told ATC that the Air Canada aircraft was headed for the taxiway. The second aircraft, the Philippine A340, turned on its landing lights.
As the Air Canada aircraft passed over the taxiway end, at about 85 feet agl, the crew advanced the thrust levers and initiated a go-around.

“In post-incident interviews, both incident pilots stated that, during their first approach, they believed the lighted runway on their left was 28 Left and that they were lined up for 28 Right,” the NTSB said in a factual update on the probe. “They also stated that they did not recall seeing aircraft on taxiway C but that something did not look right to them.”

The FAA’s alert emphasized using monitoring and CRM as risk-mitigation tools. The agency also underscored the importance of pre-flight briefings to cover topics such as notices to airmen and expected airfield configurations, and monitoring ATIS messages while approaching the airport.

“If something does not look correct, the observing crewmember bears the responsibility for communicating what they see,” the FAA said. “The key behind successful CRM is being receptive, informative, proactive, and persistent. CRM also delineates job functions and the expectation of support.”

The captain, who has accumulated about 20,000 total flight hours, served as the pilot flying. The first officer has flown about 10,000 hours.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... toring-crm

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3WE
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Re: Cleared to land?

Postby 3WE » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:09 pm

There is much talk there on how we should solve this, with the normal call that FMS HAL-9000 MUST monitor the stupid pilots and that we need better type specific training and procedures.

The blue line of silence seems rather firm- this only happens one in a bazillion times (like the overly-long takeoffs).

Still...is there a trend?

I continue to state two things:

1. It sure seems like those runway lights are dim. (One real departure from reality on MSFS is how the bright runway lights show up miles upon miles away and even cut through clouds). But being more realistic, the black hole appearance of an airport is always amazing, and I don't see much contrast between taxiway and runway lights, yeah, the blue vs. white thing is apparent from 50 feet out the side window, but 3 miles out with an ever-so-shallow 3-degree view surrounded by street lights and store fronts and billboards and....

2. Somehow we must almost TOTALLY ABSOLUTELY 100% eliminate landings without some sort of electronic navigation confirmation. I know ILS's go out of service but Magenta lines seem to be a heck of a backup...and if you aren't going to have a backup what do we need in the way of an extra safety check to be sure we are on the right place.

One other sad thing. In the 1970's there used to be all sorts of side steps given out from the Flyover control tower. And until 2000, there was an LDA-DME side-step approach in use...maybe it's not analogous, but we seem so fixated on a long stabilized approach that we can't think about a side step if you happen to choose the wrong line of lights 5 miles out...If the guys could have noticed 3 miles out, the side step would have been nothing (don't tell Evan)...then again, with the other runway dark, the guys had the traditional mental picture that THE runway was the LEFT runway, and THE taxiway, the right runway.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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ocelot
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Re: Cleared to land?

Postby ocelot » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:59 am

The colors of incandescent lights become surprisingly indistinct at a distance. I wonder how much LED lighting improves this, if any.

That said, it's easy to do this: you expect to see two runways, you see two runways, even if one of them isn't. Especially somewhere you've been a zillion times before. They did at least notice that something was off... what happens with the same setup and Captain Ding Bang Ow?

Maybe inactive runways should get lit up red instead of turned off.

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reubee
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Re: Cleared to land?

Postby reubee » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:22 pm

Thought this page might have been referring to this recent incident http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4accb6aa&opt=0 Read the report http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_avia ... Report.pdf and check out the ages and experience levels of all concerned.
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3WE
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Re: Cleared to land?

Postby 3WE » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:37 pm

Thought this page might have been referring to...
To be honest, I forget exactly what this was referring to. I recall some discussion at JetPictures with the normal enthusiastic outsider recommendations as to how the industry really needs to change it's landing clearance procedures.

...perhaps some incident where the tower forgot to clear someone to land, or some brief CRM haggling on whether clearance was obtained- rather minor deal.

Nevertheless- this thread still beats the heck out of the discussion, there.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.


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