Interesting (recent) total air disasters

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Not_Karl
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Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:36 am

Let L-410 in Russia crashed shortly before landing. Uncommanded pitch reversal of a propeller.
ATR-72 in Ghana goes off-roading. Pilot lost control during take-off run after his seat slided.

Proposed solutions: Ban thrust reversers (we should have banned them after Lauda Air) and sliding seats.
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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monchavo
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Re: Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby monchavo » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:58 am

NK, serious question, do you really believe that reverse thrusters should not be used on aircraft?
Lauda air was a terrible event, but given that they are used thousands of times each day without incident and that they are a useful armoury in the toolset of stopping, ... why?
I have heard this trope repeated a few times - people grumbling about their existence. .

cheers

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3WE
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Re: Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby 3WE » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:38 am

NK, serious question, do you really believe that reverse thrusters should not be used on aircraft?
Lauda air was a terrible event, but given that they are used thousands of times each day without incident and that they are a useful armoury in the toolset of stopping, ... why?
I have heard this trope repeated a few times - people grumbling about their existence. .

cheers
Based on years of parlor talk: Reverse thrust is only supplemental. Years ago Nav5 said most of the stopping is done by brakes. Recently, Flyboy said it was needed to keep brakes cooler for faster turnarounds. I suppose, its nice to have when the brakes fail, but we also have some ERJs with no reversers and I think you can fly some aircraft with reverse MEL'd. I don't know that Not_Karl is serious, but there's a little something there for discussion.

I think the seat thing is a much bigger deal: some comments in the ATR thread imply that seats like to 'let go' in that aircraft.

If you think about it much, seat latches seem to be quite the failure point with an amazing body count. Maybe type-specific checklists should call for a custom fit piece of 2 by 4 to be wedged behind the seats? We really should do something about it, and I shall continue my disdain for Evan's scientific engineering which yet again fails us and requires pilots to be super genius fundamental cowboys. Scientific engineering should stick to how much nitrogen corn gets from cow manure!
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Not_Karl
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Re: Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:00 pm

NK, serious question, do you really believe that reverse thrusters should not be used on aircraft?
I don't know that Not_Karl is serious
No. My solutions and recommendations to the aeroplanie industry, bold assertions, absolute statemens, questioning of pilot intelligence and FoFfie opinions should Not_be taken seriously and are widely influenced by what is seen there. I probably should use smileys, sorry for the confusion.
I think you can fly some aircraft with reverse MEL'd.
Yes, and we have royally screwed it "because" of that.
(...) but there's a little something there for discussion.
Discuss :mrgreen: .
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Re: Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby 3WE » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:02 pm

No. My solutions and recommendations to the aeroplanie industry, bold assertions, absolute statemens, questioning of pilot intelligence and FoFfie opinions should Not_be taken seriously and are widely influenced by what is seen there. I probably should use smileys, sorry for the confusion.
I was tempted to ask Monchie if he was Boeing Bobby...(of course, is he Boeing Bobby without knowledge of blue font, or with knowledge of blue font?)

I assumed we all had powerful sarcasm monitors, but perhaps there was a redundancy-lacking, single point of failure?
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monchavo
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Re: Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby monchavo » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:33 am

I asked because I had heard the trope mentioned previously by others and wondered if there was a genuine cabal of people who believed they should not be present on aircraft.

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Not_Karl
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Re: Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby Not_Karl » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:19 am

I was tempted to ask Monchie if he was Boeing Bobby...(of course, is he Boeing Bobby without knowledge of blue font, or with knowledge of blue font?)
I don't think Monchie -or anyone Not_closely following our posts- is aware of our "somewhat" frequent use of sarcasm, much less of JPForums' shenanigans. His doubts are understandable.
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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Re: Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby 3WE » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:50 am

I asked because I had heard the trope mentioned previously by others and wondered if there was a genuine cabal of people who believed they should not be present on aircraft.
Sometimes it’s tough to discuss these things...if you look at the body count, one can parlour argue against them...conversely, I slightly trust scientific engineers and insiders who seem to think they should be there...

I am probably not_in the cabal.
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ocelot
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Re: Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby ocelot » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:03 am

So that one's interesting... according to today's update the event began 14 seconds before the command to enter reverse. And, given that the right-side propeller was going faster but the plane was yawing to the right, this suggests that the prop pitch was decreasing. I would like to know exactly what "a single command to the right hand propeller to enter the beta range occurred" means; does anyone know how that control system works on this A/C? It seems odd that such a command per se would occur spontaneously 14 seconds after the propeller pitch control apparently started to go off the rails, no matter what kind of mechanical or electronic glitch might generate such a command. I can think of at least four scenarios: (1) the "command" is a reporting or translation error and that point is actually the point where the prop entered the beta range, and the critical glitch happened earlier; (2) there was also an earlier spurious command that this report didn't mention or that wasn't observed for some reason, and both glitches (and maybe others) are part of a single failure sequence; (3) it wasn't an uncommanded reverse at all but the pilots did it on purpose, presumably to try to clear the developing condition (in which case wtf? but it's certainly plausible); or (4) the pilots issued some other prop pitch command and the wrong thing reached the engines. Given that the throttles were apparently advanced at the same time this happened, (3) or (4) seems more likely...

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Re: Interesting (recent) total air disasters

Postby Gabriel » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:01 pm

So that one's interesting... according to today's update the event began 14 seconds before the command to enter reverse. And, given that the right-side propeller was going faster but the plane was yawing to the right, this suggests that the prop pitch was decreasing. I would like to know exactly what "a single command to the right hand propeller to enter the beta range occurred" means; does anyone know how that control system works on this A/C? It seems odd that such a command per se would occur spontaneously 14 seconds after the propeller pitch control apparently started to go off the rails, no matter what kind of mechanical or electronic glitch might generate such a command. I can think of at least four scenarios: (1) the "command" is a reporting or translation error and that point is actually the point where the prop entered the beta range, and the critical glitch happened earlier; (2) there was also an earlier spurious command that this report didn't mention or that wasn't observed for some reason, and both glitches (and maybe others) are part of a single failure sequence; (3) it wasn't an uncommanded reverse at all but the pilots did it on purpose, presumably to try to clear the developing condition (in which case wtf? but it's certainly plausible); or (4) the pilots issued some other prop pitch command and the wrong thing reached the engines. Given that the throttles were apparently advanced at the same time this happened, (3) or (4) seems more likely...
There is a variation of 3 where it was commanded by the pilots but unintentionally. This can be combined with some technical issue (like the failure of a thing that should avoid this command in flight).

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Not_Karl
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Acronyms!

Postby Not_Karl » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:33 am

NOT_a total air disaster, but an apparent TOTAL ACRONYM DISASTER. It was bound to happen.
An article in Spanish does not add any useful information, except the following: "El problema estuvo en la interpretación de la sigla en inglés por parte de la torre de control" (the problem was in VectorForFood's interpretation of the -unnamed- English acronym).
Let's hope that Gabe (or Evanie) can shed some light on what acronym was used, as I have no idea.

Proposed solution: Ban acronyms.
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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3WE
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Re: Acronyms!

Postby 3WE » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:53 am

Proposed solution: Ban acronyms.
It is a good idea to stay 20 NM away from Cbs.
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Not_Karl
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Re: Acronyms!

Postby Not_Karl » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:16 pm

Proposed solution: Ban acronyms.
It is a good idea to stay 20 NM away from Cbs.
20 Newton metres away from circuit breakers?
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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3WE
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Re: Acronyms!

Postby 3WE » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:22 pm

Proposed solution: Ban acronyms.
It is a good idea to stay 20 NM away from Cbs.
20 Newton metres away from circuit breakers?
LOL, AFAIK

And don't be a cowboy and turn off thunderstoms without carefully following the appropriate type specific checklist.
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Re: Acronyms!

Postby Gabriel » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:06 am

Let's hope that Gabe (or Evanie) can shed some light on what acronym was used, as I have no idea.
NTNLMPI = No Tengo ni la mas puta Idea.

Days ago, as soon AvHerald published the article, I tried to find out. And failed. (still trying, though)

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Re: Acronyms!

Postby Not_Karl » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:54 am

Days ago, as soon AvHerald published the article, I tried to find out. And failed. (still trying, though)
YADIW :mrgreen:
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Re: Acronyms!

Postby Gabriel » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:31 pm

Days ago, as soon AvHerald published the article, I tried to find out. And failed. (still trying, though)
YADIW :mrgreen:
What is the meaning/definition of the letters in YADIW?
Meaning of YADIW by its letters
YADIW acronym or abbreviation means:

Y: Meaning of Y in YADIW. Y is a mystic character. It lies on one leg spreading two arms out upwards and outwards. Y seems to be yearning for something from above. It is mystic, reserved, affecting yet self-governing. The separate arms shows why is separate and it could also be troublesome if it receives mystical powers.

A: Meaning of A in YADIW. The letter A has two bars connected at a pointed edge and a cross bar holding them together. From an open end to a pointed edge signifies that all energies are trained to a point to achieve the most singularly important goal. The cross bar shows caution. Failure is avoided by stringing all required resources together. A also looks like a Pyramid with the peak as the apex of the Pyramid. Pyramids are iconic. A therefore symbolizes prominence and a desire to be recognized for ones achievements. The cross bar also represents a rung in ladder. To get to the top, one has to first step on the rung. It also means originality, a strong will power and an enterprising ability. The upper-case version consists of the two slanting sides of a triangle, crossed in the middle by a horizontal bar. It shows aspiration, the dominance to be successful, positive attitude, an optimistic world view and egotism.

D: Meaning of D in YADIW. D is a closed letter indicating self sufficiency. It displays self-reliance, a caring attitude and broadmindedness. It's broadmindedness can be seen in the fat that the letter D has a side that looks like an upright pole, it branches from the top and bottom to explore outwards, gain worldly knowledge, but its steady and slow, meticulous and self-reliance brings it back to itself.

I: Meaning of I in YADIW. I is a singular letter that thrives on it's on. It is altruistic, concerned, kind, responsive. It shows little tolerance to the outside, it is forceful, alert, self-reliant, loving, egoistic, mutinous, and learned.

W: Meaning of W in YADIW. W is an impressive characted. It has three projections pointing upwards and rests on two ends. It is nontraditional and energetic. More ends at the top indicated W is interested in travel, it is exciting, adventure seeking, willing enthusiastically, tasteful, and go-getting.

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Not_Karl
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Bird on a Plane

Postby Not_Karl » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:26 am

A different kind of total ornithodisaster...
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

elaw
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Re: Bird on a Plane

Postby elaw » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:24 pm

A different kind of total ornithodisaster...
The airline reported the flight crew noticed a small bird on the flight deck, which had obviously entered the aircraft during boarding.
And that is why they should be checking IDs at the gate! :mrgreen:
HR consultant, Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc.

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Not_Karl
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Security measures turning aganist us... again.

Postby Not_Karl » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:03 am

A video system tries to catch fire and cause a total air disaster.

Proposed solution: Ban all security systems, including cockpit door locks -or, better still, cockpit doors entirely... so we can see and stop the pilots when they start monkeying with something-.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the meaning/definition of the letters in YADIW?
(...)
You Are Doing It Wrong :mrgreen:
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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Re: Security measures turning aganist us... again.

Postby elaw » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:36 am

A video system tries to catch fire and cause a total air disaster.
Moscow's Transport Prosecution Office reported there was sparking and smoke pollution from the video surveillance equipment due to a wiring/insulation fault.
Video surveillance equipment? What/who are they surveilling?
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Not_Karl
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Re: Security measures turning aganist us... again.

Postby Not_Karl » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:36 pm

A video system tries to catch fire and cause a total air disaster.
Moscow's Transport Prosecution Office reported there was sparking and smoke pollution from the video surveillance equipment due to a wiring/insulation fault.
Video surveillance equipment? What/who are they surveilling?
Maybe a translation issue. I imagine it is for making sure that the crew member knocking on the cockpit door is not in the undesired company of a baddie. What would be the correct term? We would call it "portero visor", translate that! :D
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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Gabriel
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Re: Security measures turning aganist us... again.

Postby Gabriel » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:22 am

Maybe a translation issue. I imagine it is for making sure that the crew member knocking on the cockpit door is not in the undesired company of a baddie.
It was exactly that.
What would be the correct term? We would call it "portero visor", translate that! :D
Translation of portero visor would be video intercom. But it was not a portero visor. Rather, it is a CCTV.

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Not_Karl
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Re: Security measures turning aganist us... again.

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:59 am

Maybe a translation issue. I imagine it is for making sure that the crew member knocking on the cockpit door is not in the undesired company of a baddie.
It was exactly that.
Thanks :D
What would be the correct term? We would call it "portero visor", translate that! :D
Translation of portero visor would be video intercom.
WRONG
Screenshot_2018-01-15-23-54-47_1.jpg
Screenshot_2018-01-15-23-54-47_1.jpg (45.3 KiB) Viewed 1015 times
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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Not_Karl
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A near total air disaster and a total ETOPS disaster

Postby Not_Karl » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:59 pm

Mexican VectorForFood clears Canada Rouge B767-3 :mrgreen: to descend below minimum safe altitude; EGPWS and a less-stupid-than-usual crew listening to it instead of monkeying with its CB save the day.
EASA issues EAD regarding A320 Neo and A321 Neo engines, withdraws ETOPS with immediate effect (3WE will love all those acronyms!) because of cheap composite crackerbox Ameritrash Pratt & Whitney PW1127, PW1130 and PW1133 . They should have used Russian engines :mrgreen: .
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"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.


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