Fumes kills pilot

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Gabriel
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Fumes kills pilot

Postby Gabriel » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:21 am

Masterpiece of investigative journalism, with the potential of saving many lives.
If this doesn't deserve a Pulitzer, then what does? Kudos for Simon.

This is more important than the Facebook / Cambridge Analytica affair.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b6eb830&opt=0

And yes, it is a copy/paste from a post there.

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3WE
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby 3WE » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:17 am

Hmmm. This does not seem to be an epidemic...I think there’s lots of old pilots and FAs...conversely, theres all the bragging about how 787 cabin air is so much nicer...

:?
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Gabriel
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby Gabriel » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:44 am

Hmmm. This does not seem to be an epidemic...I think there’s lots of old pilots and FAs...conversely, theres all the bragging about how 787 cabin air is so much nicer...

:?
Fumes/odor is arguably the most frequent entry in AVH. Even when it seems that airlines are not reporting most of the events (nor they are required to).

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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:44 pm

Gabriel, are you back to posting the same stuff all over the place or what?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

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3WE
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby 3WE » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:53 pm

Fumes/odor is arguably the most frequent entry in AVH. Even when it seems that airlines are not reporting most of the events (nor they are required to).
This is creepy and thought provoking begs the question- how do you know when a smell is a bad smell...

No doubt a lot of smells were dismissed by pilots...Enjoyed some nice half burnt kerosene on my last flight...kind of an aphrodisiac.

AND

Some REPORTED smells were dismissed by Murphy's law (the little oil leak was gone by the time the mechanics got to it)

AND

Some REPORTES smells were dismissed by "the system".

AND

Some REPORTED smells were dismissed with prejudice.

No real foul until the very last.

Back to the 787 deal...how long until an electric air pump catches fire (and tweaks the Li batteries) and there's a near-total disaster? (And let's pretend we retrofit EVERYTHING to some sort of electric air pump and air conditioning...same deal...Risk 1 vs. Risk 2...and as Not_Karl likes to day, "Ban all airplanes".

Also at this point does there seem to be a trend to certain engines causing these fume incidents? And when is a fume incident something incidental/nothing genuine to it VS when we have evidence it's the nasty nerve-gas engine oil additive?
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3WE
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby 3WE » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:56 pm

Gabriel, are you back to posting the same stuff all over the place or what?
For me:

Objective of posting there: Stir crap, razz Evan, irritate Brian, get chuckles, see if someone suggests a bold, eye-rolling modification to aerospace safety methods.

Objective of posting here: Get chuckles, get very small amounts of somewhat more thoughtful discussion.

For Gabriel:

Not sure.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

elaw
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby elaw » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:58 pm

the little oil leak was gone by the time the mechanics got to it
Or the fact they checked the engine at 30000+/- feet lower altitude may have been a factor...

Also I found the mention of decades-earlier research on the effect of oil fumes interesting for one specific reason: jets use synthetic oil, whereas as far as I know, piston-engined aircraft almost always used mineral oil.

This is totally nonscientific but I know in the automotive world, synthetic oils (I'm thinking refrigeration oils more than motor oils but the same principles apply) have many more health hazards than mineral oils when they're *not* heated. It seems likely to me that heat would likely make the problem worse... although the temperature thresholds are probably different (mineral oil starts to break down at a lower temperature than synthetics).
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Not_Karl
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby Not_Karl » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:17 pm

as Not_Karl likes to day, "Ban all airplanes".
INDEED.
(...) see if someone suggests a bold, eye-rolling modification to aerospace safety methods.
Instead of banning all aeroplanies, we could just ban those with enclosed, pressurized, bleed-air chemtrailed/fire-prone electrically pumped cabins. Low, slow flying aeroplanies with an open cabin should be safe.
Also I found the mention of decades-earlier research on the effect of oil fumes interesting for one specific reason: jets use synthetic oil, whereas as far as I know, piston-engined aircraft almost always used mineral oil.
Or we can just ban turbine aeroplanies!
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3WE
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby 3WE » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:56 pm

3BS: the little oil leak was gone by the time the mechanics got to it
Eric: ***This is totally nonscientific...synthetic oils...mineral oils***
The article specifically mentioned a rather nasty additive- that is "needed" for the super duper RPM's of turbines.

As long as we're being marginally scientific, the article said "organophosphate" and a lot of those things are known to be pretty toxic...and partially burning them doesn't make things better.

From the arm chair we could say, "ban nasty additives", but there's a lot of witchcraft in lubricants AND it's understanding that turbine oil might need a little help.
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elaw
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby elaw » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:04 am

Yeah I've got no problem with giving the oil all the help it needs to keep the engine happy. Apparently it just needs a little help staying out of the cabin. :?
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby elaw » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:09 am

Check out the third post in this thread: http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=723265
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3WE
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby 3WE » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:11 am

Yeah I've got no problem with giving the oil all the help it needs to keep the engine happy. Apparently it just needs a little help staying out of the cabin. :?
Same ole deal...the scienctific engineers try to pull the air from an area that’s very clean...except when it’s not.

Solid planning...excrement transpires.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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Gabriel
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby Gabriel » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:22 am

Gabriel, are you back to posting the same stuff all over the place or what?
If it's worth it, yes. I mean, if you are ok with that, of course,

I thought that adding "And yes, it is a copy/paste from a post there" to the first post would prevent this kind of constructive comments of yours.
I was wrong (see? I told you am not always right)

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Gabriel
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby Gabriel » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:33 am

Fumes/odor is arguably the most frequent entry in AVH. Even when it seems that airlines are not reporting most of the events (nor they are required to).
This is creepy and thought provoking begs the question- how do you know when a smell is a bad smell...
When the 3-figures harmful gases, fumes and vapors detector that airplane manufacturers don't offer, airlines don't install, and authorities don't require, tells you so.

CO is one of the most common respiratory poisoning, in homes and airplanes alike. It doesn't smell.
In eBay you can find cheap CO detectors for $11 and expensive ones (Honeywell no less) for $67.

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3WE
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby 3WE » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:08 am

Check out the third post in this thread: http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=723265
17 years ago, too!

Good thing Gabe posted there...but he forgot to mention the livery.
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3WE
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby 3WE » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:16 am

...CO is one of the most common respiratory poisoning, in homes and airplanes alike. It doesn't smell...
CO poisoning is common in airliners?
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Gabriel
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby Gabriel » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:14 am

...CO is one of the most common respiratory poisoning, in homes and airplanes alike. It doesn't smell...
CO poisoning is common in airliners?
http://avherald.com/h?search_term=monox ... search.y=0

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3WE
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby 3WE » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:57 am

...CO is one of the most common respiratory poisoning, in homes and airplanes alike. It doesn't smell...
CO poisoning is common in airliners?
http://avherald.com/h?search_term=monox ... search.y=0
That search is underwhelming. Helios, GROUND power units, statements that some of those were engine oil. I saw one comment suggesting motion sickness. Very few actual IN FLIGHT incidents of colorless, odorless CO and few plausible sources.

A light plane muffler heat exchanger- yeah, but CO sources for an airliner in flight are few. I am not dismissing air contamination but am minimalizing CO.
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Gabriel
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby Gabriel » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:04 pm



CO poisoning is common in airliners?
http://avherald.com/h?search_term=monox ... search.y=0
That search is underwhelming. Helios, GROUND power units, statements that some of those were engine oil. I saw one comment suggesting motion sickness. Very few actual IN FLIGHT incidents of colorless, odorless CO and few plausible sources.

A light plane muffler heat exchanger- yeah, but CO sources for an airliner in flight are few. I am not dismissing air contamination but am minimalizing CO.
It would be good to know if you are getting poisoned with CO even while on the ground.
Anyway, detectors that can detect multitude of harmful gases, fumes and vapors are hundreds of dollars.
Or have a bird in a cage.

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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:34 pm

Gabriel, are you back to posting the same stuff all over the place or what?
If it's worth it, yes. I mean, if you are ok with that, of course,
It's not worth it.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

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Gabriel
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby Gabriel » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:29 pm

Gabriel, are you back to posting the same stuff all over the place or what?
If it's worth it, yes. I mean, if you are ok with that, of course,
It's not worth it.
Is that a fact or your opinion? May I have an opinion that doesn't match yours (or your fact), please?

I will not tell you what you need to be concerned about, but pilots are more exposed than anybody else to this risk.

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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby Not_Karl » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:50 pm

Gabriel, are you back to posting the same stuff all over the place or what?
If it's worth it, yes. I mean, if you are ok with that, of course,
It's not worth it.
It is.
Or have a bird in a cage.
Only if it is allowed as a comfort animal.
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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flyboy2548m
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:23 pm



If it's worth it, yes. I mean, if you are ok with that, of course,
It's not worth it.
Is that a fact or your opinion? May I have an opinion that doesn't match yours (or your fact), please?

I will not tell you what you need to be concerned about, but pilots are more exposed than anybody else to this risk.
You can have whatever opinion you want, that doesn't mean said opinion has any bearing on anything.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

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Gabriel
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Re: Fumes kills pilot

Postby Gabriel » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:23 am

You can have whatever opinion you want
Thank you.


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