Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

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Not_Karl
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Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:58 pm

Crashed shortly after take off, went through a warehouse or something similar, 20 injured :( . Video shows it trailing smoke during take-off.

This was the nice classic aeroplanie:
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9002145
https://www.planelogger.com/Aircraft/Re ... BRV/763764

From Jetphotos:
Recently repainted in the classic Martinair scheme of the 1960s in anticipation of its imminent departure to its new home at the Aviodrome Lelystad in the Netherlands. Departure is scheduled for 12 July and it should be arriving in the Netherlands on 23 July. I am sad to think that this is probably my final time photographing this beautiful aeroplane in South Africa but I at least know it is going to a good home.
:cry:

Google search.
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3WE
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby 3WE » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:28 am

...nice classic aeroplanie...
Indeed.

Will Gabriel suggest the installation of TOPMS in Convairs?
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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Gabriel
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby Gabriel » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:56 am

How about better grounding all Convairs and putting the airline in our no-fly list?

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Ancient Mariner
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby Ancient Mariner » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 am

How about better grounding all Convairs and putting the airline in our no-fly list?
Which airline?
Per

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Gabriel
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby Gabriel » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:34 pm

How about better grounding all Convairs and putting the airline in our no-fly list?
Which airline?
Per
The plane was painted in the colors of, but not operated by, Martin's Air Charter.
My post was never serious to begin with.

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ocelot
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby ocelot » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:10 am

So, you have an engine fire. How do you manage to Not_pull the fire handle? There must be more to it than that, somehow...

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3WE
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby 3WE » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:35 pm

So, you have an engine fire. How do you manage to Not_pull the fire handle? There must be more to it than that, somehow...
Seems a shame, but I would run to Evan and ATL world where you rehearse all of this stuff on six-month intervals and are trained to react almost mindlessly (please don't take me literally).

AND COMPARE THAT

To a very old airliner where they guys are not_spending 80 hours per month flying the EXACT same plane.

Buzzers and stuff go off and not_unlike Bonin we are overloaded with sensory stuff and you know SOMETHING is wrong, but what, and what is the procedure and where is the lever, and what is wrong...I don't like the terrain ahead...tunnel vision and you do not_pull the fire handle.

All of this is parlour speculation- but I have several years of experience in it...
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby Gabriel » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:59 am

I must have missed something. What was the issue with the fire handle and was that a causal or contributing factor to the accident?

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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby Not_Karl » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:54 pm

So, you have an engine fire. How do you manage to Not_pull the fire handle? There must be more to it than that, somehow...
The crew apparently didn't know which was the explody engine (even with a fluctuating left engine RPM gauge, a left engine fire master caution light and a passenger telling them of a fire on the left engine).
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Gabriel
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby Gabriel » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:32 pm

So, you have an engine fire. How do you manage to Not_pull the fire handle? There must be more to it than that, somehow...
The crew apparently didn't know which was the explody engine (even with a fluctuating left engine RPM gauge, a left engine fire master caution light and a passenger telling them of a fire on the left engine).
Given its inability to climb, I am guessing that the engine was not only in fire (if it was) but also producing at least a very reduced thrust if at all.

In a twin, when an engine does that, the main indication for the pilot is the yaw tendency and what rudder pedal you are pressing to keep it from spinning out of the sky (what these pilots did pretty well): Dead foot = dead engine. Pushing foot = pushing engine.

I cannot imagine that the pilot didn't know what engine was failing, even without the RPM gauge, the fire alarm, and the passenger yelling.

I might accept the claim that he didn't know the the engine was on fire. But what does that have to do with the accident? It is not like the plane burned out in the sky or the wing had a structural failure or exploded due to the fire. The plane crashed very much in control and flying straight and level except not being able to climb or even hold the little altitude it had already achieved.

Where did all this discussion about the fire handle come from in the first place?

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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby 3WE » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:09 pm

***I cannot imagine that the pilot didn't know what engine was failing***
Umm Davey. You know that post there where Gabriel posted some youtubes. :-)

https://youtu.be/amQe7_rXUfo

I assume Ocelot read something somewhere? Maybe not Karlie too?
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Not_Karl
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby Not_Karl » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:05 am

Given its inability to climb, I am guessing that the engine was not only in fire (if it was) but also producing at least a very reduced thrust if at all.
Indeed, it was also spitting melty bits and "The damage observed on the (left) propeller was indicative of damage caused during rotation of the propeller that was Not_turning at high power".
There was also some difficulty with controls: "The GOPRO recording also shows the control wheel deflected to the right and the captain indicating that they had lost aileron, and requesting rudder input from the FO"
I cannot imagine that the pilot didn't know what engine was failing, even without the RPM gauge, the fire alarm, and the passenger yelling.
"The cockpit GOPRO recording also shows that the left engine RPM gauge was fluctuating and that later the left engine fire master caution light was illuminating and an audible warning sound was heard."
" It also shows that though the pilots and LAME* were informed of the left engine fire, they were asking each other which engine was on fire."
Also interesting: "The GOPRO also shows that the pilots were Not_sure if they had retracted the landing gears, as they can be heard asking each other whether the gears are out or not."

*LAME: Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.
It is not like the plane burned out in the sky or the wing had a structural failure or exploded due to the fire. The plane crashed very much in control and flying straight and level except not being able to climb or even hold the little altitude it had already achieved.

Where did all this discussion about the fire handle come from in the first place?
Don't know about the importance of extinguishing the fire in this particular case, but the first item in the engine fire checklist (I'm Not_Evan), after identifying the burning engine, is to feather its propeller. Given that the engine was (at least at the time of impact) Not_producing "high power", might the outcome have been better had they feathered the propeller? (honest ignorant asshat outsider question)
I don't know where the fire handle discussion comes, maybe there?
I assume Ocelot read something somewhere? Maybe Not_Karlie too?
We may have, but we're Not_telling! (and fixed)

...Ok, here you go ;) .
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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3WE
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby 3WE » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:36 pm

We may have, but we're Not_telling!
Foul on Ocelot for not following Parlour Talk Interweb Fora Procedures and not_listing a linky. (More evidence that women do not belong in aviation...JUST KIDDING, your posts are quality and appreciated and your humor is solid and we love you.)

I note two really big things in the linky.

1. I do not_see mention of the scientific aeroengineer estimates of possible single engine rates of climb.

2. Figure 2- and not_the unextinguised fire, BUT the aileron that seems to be cocked up.
Figure 2.JPG
Figure 2.JPG (45.08 KiB) Viewed 391 times


Me thinks if engine 1 is dragging, the aeroplanie will try to turn left and go left-wing-down and to compensate, the aileron would be downward. However, this is consistent with the comment "we've lost aileron". Possible causes: something in the engine compartment breaks or burns or melts a control cable, or the control cable is severed by a small meteorite.

Oh, there's actually a third, was there potential for improved phugoid management to improve the outcome of this crash- I find no discussion of this in the interim report.

Ok, 4- the discussion of the weather mentions circuit breaker clouds and the report also shows cockpit photos of cumulonimbus switches.

Sorry that the acronym dude did died.
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ocelot
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Re: Convair C-131 crash in Pretoria

Postby ocelot » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:00 am

Guilty as charged, I got the report url from AH and assumed everyone else would have also, without probably even thinking about it.


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