Lion Air Flight 610

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Not_Karl
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Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Not_Karl » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:34 am

B737 Max 8 delivered new on August 13. Crashed into the Java Sea shortly after takeoff from Jakarta, Indonesia. 189 people on board, apparently no survivors :cry: .

https://avherald.com/h?article=4bf90724&opt=0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:04 pm

IF we choose to discuss this here, the flight aware track shows very little stable speed altitude and heading and they say there, that there was a request to return due to "technical problems".

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/...310Z/WIII/WIKK
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Not_Karl » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:28 pm

From AvieHeraldie:
The airline reported the aircraft encountered a technical problem, the crew was about to return to Jakarta. There had also been a technical problem on the previous flight, this problem however was fixed (editorial note: the aircraft remained on the ground in Jakarta over night for 8 hours prior to the accident flight, there is a write up circulating in the Internet only claiming the aircraft had experienced unreliable airspeed and altitude on the previous flight, the captain's instruments were identified faulty, control was handed to the first officer and the flight continued to destination below RVSM airspace - we removed this write up repeatedly from our reader comment board because of its unverified nature and because it supposedly contains names of flight crew). The captain had accumulated 6,000 hours of total flight experience, the first officer 5,000 hours.
A video and photos are circulating the Internet claiming to show the accident flight from a passenger's perspective. The Indonesian Government reports that the video shows a previous flight JT-353 from Jakarta to Padang which encountered turbulence some time ago, all on board remained okay. The photos showing passengers on oxygen masks also have not been taken on JT-610. "Don't join and spread the hoax", the government asks.
At least they didn't use footage from Lost as with Gol's midair collision...
IF we choose to discuss this here, the flight aware track shows very little stable speed altitude and heading and they say there, that there was a request to return due to "technical problems"
I don't know what's that there you are talking about 8-) .
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Gabriel » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:30 pm

... and they say in the link below, that there was a request to return due to "technical problems".
http://avherald.com/h?article=4bf90724&opt=0
"Indonesia's Civil Aviation Authority reported the aircraft requested to return to Jakarta."

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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:34 pm

Quote = Not_Karl- a bunch of preliminary, not-so-confirmed, but insightful facts.
WOW...How do you have the controls and/or instruments crap out on you?

And/or how do you go out of control like that.

Gabbiee says it was daytime and not too cloudy...

Set known power and look out the window for known attitude and direction. (I know Evan objects to this).

VERY strange. I'm sure we can beat the rumors to death over the next few days, but then months of silence as needed things are addressed and final report is developed.

Sad for any modern aeroplanie to crash (50 YO ones AND 50 DO ones).
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:20 pm

It doesn't matter, LionAir was already on Evanie's No-Fly List.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:50 pm

It doesn't matter, LionAir was already on Evanie's No-Fly List.
What about YOUR no-fly list (I know you have one) :mrgreen:
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:17 pm

It doesn't matter, LionAir was already on Evanie's No-Fly List.
What about YOUR no-fly list (I know you have one) :mrgreen:
My No-Fly List is immaterial, I only recently found out about Chicago's Ward 41.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:37 pm

My No-Fly List is immaterial.
Amongst the razzing- was a hidden, 20% genuine question if you felt "Lion Air" was one of those "not-so-western" / "not-quite-as-awesome" operations.

While it's all technically immaterial, your OPINION is respected here (to some extent, along with the severely limited listening and understanding that we have.)
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:50 pm

My No-Fly List is immaterial.
Amongst the razzing- was a hidden, 20% genuine question if you felt "Lion Air" was one of those "not-so-western" / "not-quite-as-awesome" operations.

While it's all technically immaterial, your OPINION is respected here (to some extent, along with the severely limited listening and understanding that we have.)
I know very little about LionAir other than that they exist and that they evidently have the cash to buy brand new 737-Maxes.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:53 am

Discussion comment: In many instances of "bad instrument crashes" with airliners, the plane is very much "in control" and "is told" rather relentlessly to do what the pilot thinks is the right thing- but which sadly, is the wrong thing. Several folks have stalled (not so much Air France or Colgan, but also instances of INDICATED high airspeed), some roll the plane over "to level the wings".

It's a fairly short sequence of some fairly intentional control inputs. Not minutes smaller up down left right excursions.

This case seems different. BUT THEN, we have hints of instrument problems- and up down left right is kinda like a VFR pilot in IMC.

All in and airplane that Evan would contrast to those dangerous (and lousy-performing) Junkers.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:23 pm

Discussion comment: In many instances of "bad instrument crashes" with airliners, the plane is very much "in control" and "is told" rather relentlessly to do what the pilot thinks is the right thing- but which sadly, is the wrong thing. Several folks have stalled (not so much Air France or Colgan, but also instances of INDICATED high airspeed), some roll the plane over "to level the wings".

It's a fairly short sequence of some fairly intentional control inputs. Not minutes smaller up down left right excursions.

This case seems different. BUT THEN, we have hints of instrument problems- and up down left right is kinda like a VFR pilot in IMC.

All in and airplane that Evan would contrast to those dangerous (and lousy-performing) Junkers.

Of course.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:12 pm

All in an airplane of ancient design that Evan would compare to those dangerous (and lousy-performing) Junkers.
Fixed.
It's a fairly short sequence of some fairly intentional control inputs. Not minutes smaller up down left right excursions.
Aeroperú 603 flew for 25 minutes.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:39 pm

Aeroperú 603 flew for 25 minutes.
1. Thank you.

2. The counter argument would be that these guys were flying at night- apparently in the pseudo-Kennedy-IMC. Gabeee says Lion Air was in scattered clouds...SHOULD HAVE BEEN decent ground / horizon contact.

3. @#$^@$#!- The outsider says: A. Why not look at an ATTITUDE indicator for basic control*. B. Why not look at a RADAR altimeter to not fly into the water? (*and the use of known power settings)

4. Do we have a trend that airplane warnings go bezerk, and crews lose it (Air France, this one, and potentially Lion Air).
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Verbal » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:08 pm

Someone on the ground neglected to remove the pitot tube covers. The pilots had no idea of their true airspeed. The airplane stalled and plunged into the ocean. People died. I'm sorry.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:25 am

Just a guess, but they may also have lacked knowledge of their indicated airspeed.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Verbal » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:10 pm

1. Thank you.
No.
2. The counter argument would be ....
No.
3. A. Why not look at....
No.
3. B. Why not look at....
No.
4. Do we have a trend that....
No.

Hope this helps.
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Not_Karl
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Not_Karl » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:17 pm

Hope this helps.
No.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby monchavo » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:59 am

Someone on the ground neglected to remove the pitot tube covers. The pilots had no idea of their true airspeed. The airplane stalled and plunged into the ocean. People died. I'm sorry.
Do we have a winner?
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby AnMariner » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:10 pm

Someone on the ground neglected to remove the pitot tube covers. The pilots had no idea of their true airspeed. The airplane stalled and plunged into the ocean. People died. I'm sorry.
Do we have a winner?
No.
Per

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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:52 pm

11/5/2018: A rather definitive statement from Internet media that there were airspeed indication problems on three previous flights AND DURING THE FATEFUL FLIGHT.

Am I wrong to make the keyboard pontification that the loss of airspeed indications in reasonably good weather should not result in the loss of the aircraft?

Cessna 172...1800 RPM = 70 knots straight and level (check altimeter and VSI (and attitude indicator or the view out the front) OR the side).
1500 RPM = a nice descent at a nice airspeed. (Speed kind of determined by attitude (/rate of descent), but how about we tend towards FAMILIAR attitudes?(and/or check the VSI))
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Verbal » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:41 pm

Am I wrong....
Yes.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:03 pm

Am I wrong....
Yes.
No.

I would not crash a 172 due to a loss of airspeed indication.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Verbal » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:00 pm

I would not crash a 172 due to a loss of airspeed indication.
Pray tell, how would you crash a Cessna 172 then?
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:04 pm

I would not crash a 172 due to a loss of airspeed indication.
Pray tell, how would you crash a Cessna 172 then?
There are many.

Here is a sampling:

-Power-off, unplanned landing- likely "less than good" by "insider definitions".
-Stupid IMC encounter (possibly .
-Getting run over by Flyboy.
-Spin out of a base-to-final turn (as punishment for all of my bragging that I'd NEVER stall).
-Wing strike, cartwheel, runway excursion crash burn die from bad crosswind technique.
-Wire strike.
-Prop blade departs- lack of balance takes engine out. Stall spin crash burn die IN SPITE OF RELENTLESS PUSH OVER.
-Goose through the windshield, 3BS incapacitation.
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