Lion Air Flight 610

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Verbal
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Verbal » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:42 pm

I see. Would you died?
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3WE
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:01 am

I see. Would you died?
No, of course not. Doesn't everyone say that, including those that did died?
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elaw
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby elaw » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:07 pm

Pray tell, how would you crash a Cessna 172 then?
There are many.

Here is a sampling:

-Power-off, unplanned landing- likely "less than good" by "insider definitions".
-Stupid IMC encounter (possibly .
-Getting run over by Flyboy.
-Spin out of a base-to-final turn (as punishment for all of my bragging that I'd NEVER stall).
-Wing strike, cartwheel, runway excursion crash burn die from bad crosswind technique.
-Wire strike.
-Prop blade departs- lack of balance takes engine out. Stall spin crash burn die IN SPITE OF RELENTLESS PUSH OVER.
-Goose through the windshield, 3BS incapacitation.
No meteors?
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3WE
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:19 pm

No meteors?
Thank you.

I knew my list was incomplete and was hoping for help from fellow forumites with key omissions. (Gabe, NK?)

As to if I would did died, I plan to use my ordinary, solid flying abilities to hang the meteor-crippled plane in a tree...However, I might did died when I open the door to exit the plane.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:39 pm

I knew my list was incomplete and was hoping for help from fellow forumites with key omissions. (Gabe, NK?)
Missiles, poor phugoid management, rudder hardovers (servo or monkey-pilot induced), composite delamination and/or cracking, cb monkeying...
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elaw
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby elaw » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:44 pm

Never mind the oft-cited scenario of CFIT due to pilot(s) being distracted trying to figure out why a "gear down" lamp is failing to light. In this case of course it would be because most 172s don't have retractable landing gear. :lol:
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3WE
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:11 am

And NO ONE thought about Russians putting trees in the way!
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:15 am

I go drinking with Peter Garrison, we swipe the turbo off the melmoth and go to four one oh the 172. In our drunken state, we mis manage the 02 bottles...
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:05 am

AvHerald:
On Nov 7th 2018 Boeing issued an Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) to all Boeing 737 MAX Operators stating that the investigation into the crash of PK-LQP found one of the Angle of Attack Sensors had provided incorrect readings, which could cause the aircraft's trim system to uncommandedly trim nose down in order to avoid a stall during manual flight. The OMB directs "operators to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor." The OMB reiterates the Stabilizer Runaway non-normal checklist.
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3WE
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:00 pm

I see much talk on the subject of automation and humans and just what override abilities they have...

Has the concept of "the human always has ultimate override" evolved to a very type specific over rice procedure?

I kind of like the ability to work the steering wheel and get whatever you need.

Conversely, I think Gabiee has said that "trim runaway is trim runaway" and you should know how to stop it...
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ocelot
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby ocelot » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:07 am

One of the things that's come out is that while an ordinary trim runaway is continuous, this thing produces a runaway where it moves a bit and stops, and then a bit later it moves a bit more and stops, and over and over but never for very long or very much at once. Real easy to not notice it happening in that case.

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Gabriel
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Gabriel » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:11 pm

One of the things that's come out is that while an ordinary trim runaway is continuous, this thing produces a runaway where it moves a bit and stops, and then a bit later it moves a bit more and stops, and over and over but never for very long or very much at once. Real easy to not notice it happening in that case.
But if that happens and you feel you need to do too much force (or any force) to keep the nose from going down, would using the normal yoke trim switch to apply nose-up trim be not only logical but reasonable and natural? (and a way to temporary stop a trim runaway by the way).

And this "a bit and stop", a bit can be up to 10 seconds. This is from Boeing's bulletin:
In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds. The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 seconds after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated through use of both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches in accordance with the existing procedures in the Runaway Stabilizer NNC. It is possible for the stabilizer to reach the nose down limit unless the system inputs are counteracted completely by pilot trim inputs and both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT.

I am starting to suspect that there may have been something more to this, like using some interrupter or Cumulus Nimbus that would kill the yoke trim switch but not this new stall-prevention automatic trim MCAS thingy. Anyway, I it seems that even the MCAS will move the trim wheel together with the stabilizer (that are mechanically connected), and the hand can overpower the trim motor, so grabbing and holding and turning the wheel manually would always be a workable override.

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3WE
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:35 pm

One of the things that's come out is that while an ordinary trim runaway is continuous, this thing produces a runaway where it moves a bit and stops, and then a bit later it moves a bit more and stops, and over and over but never for very long or very much at once. Real easy to not notice it happening in that case.
But if that happens and you feel you need to do too much force (or any force) to keep the nose from going down, would using the normal yoke trim switch to apply nose-up trim be not only logical but reasonable and natural? (and a way to temporary stop a trim runaway by the way).
When I read Evan's (not Ocelot's) depiction of this stuff my head spins.

AND, you only have to trick the mind.

Oh crap, there's some inexplicable force moving the nose down- and it's not the trim because I looked twice and it's not moving....oh crap, we're going to die, switching off logical thought processes. (Yeah, I want to think I'd be pressing the nose-up trim button relentlessly, but you never know).

I THINK I'm a fairly smart person, but all of these jury-rigged systems and type specific stuff and then FLYATLBOY recites it all with frightening accuracy...I can see SOME folks getting overwhelmed, even though it seems soooo straight forward to 172-type operations.
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Gabriel
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Gabriel » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:06 pm

Oh crap, there's some inexplicable force moving the nose down- and it's not the trim because I looked twice and it's not moving....oh crap, we're going to die, switching off logical thought processes. (Yeah, I want to think I'd be pressing the nose-up trim button relentlessly, but you never know).
Would yu be pulling up with all your forces and relentlessly pressing the nose-up trim button if the stickshaker is shaking?

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3WE
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:12 pm

Would yu be pulling up with all your forces and relentlessly pressing the nose-up trim button if the stickshaker is shaking?
We're back to Colgan...

I am not sure what the situational awareness is.

Was it oh shit, SUDDEN this is creepy crazy different from anything that's going on and I really wasn't paying attention that a minute ago we were at very healthy attitudes airspeeds and everything.....

OR was it- we are flying along and I'm monitoring and I'm confident things are fight, but the INDICATIONS SURE are crazy and the plane wants to nose over.....

Two different MENTAL states....

I dunno man...it SEEMLY defies logic, BUT it happened.
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3WE
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:15 pm

Would yu be pulling up with all your forces and relentlessly pressing the nose-up trim button if the stickshaker is shaking?
Another angle...If I'm getting stall warnings, I like to do MEASURED nose overs and check airspeed and attitude and even though that does not guarantee stall recovery since ANY airspeed and attitude is in play...

BUT

...Before I dutifully do a vertical dive (or allow any sort of dive to the water), I HOPE I consider that there's no shuddering and mushiness and that the power and attitude and speed and on and on are consistent with healthy flight.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:49 pm

None of it matters, it's curtains for Boeing anyway, Evanie The Aviation Sage said so.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:58 am

None of it matters, it's curtains for Boeing anyway, Evanie The Aviation Sage said so.
I'm more pissed at all of you Pilots who, from my observations, reserve your spoiler roll use for when you are low and slow and it's dangerous to do so. I think it said they work better at faster speeds, but I wouldn't really know as I have not traveled as much as Evanie.
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Sickbag
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Sickbag » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:11 pm

Any Donkeys involved?
TRUMP: in-presidency structural break-up
within 18 months...

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ocelot
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby ocelot » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:48 am

I am starting to suspect that there may have been something more to this,
Yes, I think there's going to be at least one thing that hasn't come out yet. None of the air data/AoA stuff really explains the crash profile, which features more or less level flight followed by a fairly sudden and sharp fatal plunge. Just this MCAS thing by itself won't do that; so either they stalled (but why?) or something else happened like the tail coming off...

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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:29 am

I read of many interesting Swiss cheese layers. But did “we” really sit there and let a plane trim itself into a dive, and/or have pilots doing push overs to address stall warnings, with some sort of “what’s it doing now” confusion?

And I somewhat agree with Evanie that dual AOA measurerers seems like a good idea along with the prior flight, and the maintenance reports and crew hand off seeming to be pretty eye-rolling.
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby flyboy2548m » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:16 pm

I read of many interesting Swiss cheese layers. But did “we” really sit there and let a plane trim itself into a dive, and/or have pilots doing push overs to address stall warnings, with some sort of “what’s it doing now” confusion?

And I somewhat agree with Evanie that dual AOA measurerers seems like a good idea along with the prior flight, and the maintenance reports and crew hand off seeming to be pretty eye-rolling.
If only the safety culture were better and the regulatory agency was more gooder. That, and everything had a guarded switch and there were destroyers at every airport near water in order to do rescue stuff.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby elaw » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:30 pm

Good news: the matter has been settled!

According to a well-known aviation typist, it's all Boeing's fault: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/28/opinions ... index.html

:roll:
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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby Gabriel » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:50 am

Good news: the matter has been settled!

According to a well-known aviation typist, it's all Boeing's fault: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/28/opinions ... index.html

:roll:
This article is quite uneducated and contain several mistakes and things that he says "we don't know yet" when in fact we do know.
That is unacceptable or at least very disappointing for a professional aviation typist who just retired as a professional pilot after 34 years, especially taken into account that he wrote the article after the preliminary report which contains the answer to many of his questions and contradicts some of his observations.

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Re: Lion Air Flight 610

Postby 3WE » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:53 am

I guess that’s why our very own Flyboy suggested they were typists as opposed to journalists.

The boy has some insight.

I hope the switch guard on the trim didn’t inhibit the ability to switch it off.
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