Ethiopian 737

[Gabriel]

Preliminary report is out.

http://www.ecaa.gov.et/documents/20435/ ... af1ee17f3e

Read more there.

[3WE]

Read more there.

No. Read more here.

Most creepy...

-A lot of warnings here and there.

-A LOT of talk on the CVR that sounds like they are doing most all of the things we would want (see footnote).

-Paraphrased "I can't get the trim to work".

-Summary- Sounds like we need to lay off "the dumb crew" scenarios.


Footnote- Behind the keyboard/arm chair pontification of what they didn't do:

-No utterance of, "Gee manitly, is this that Lion Air behavior we[no italics] have been reading about on Jetphotos?"

-I suppose there is an argument that they didn't simply trim nose up more and more quickly on the thumb switch, but put that with "what's it doing now" and normal human response...(I state this more as a question than a proclamation.)

-Evanie will still be displeased: In utopia and your arm-chair (and recurrent simulator YouTubes), you utter some acronyms and blast through the perfect memory checklist.

[3WE]

[3BS, above]
-Evanie will still be displeased: In utopia and your arm-chair (and recurrent simulator YouTubes), you utter some acronyms and blast through the perfect memory checklist.

...as I have recently learned, more specifically, that would be:

[Some magical checklist]
...Overspeed
...Reduce power

Lacking in acronyms, but...

[3WE]

...and that it would seem to be a contributing factor.

[elaw]

Interesting article on Vox.com re Boeing, aeroplane design, economics, and lots of related matters oh my: https://www.vox.com/2019/4/5/18296646/b ... are-update

An interesting tidbit I haven't seen mentioned here or there before: the a/c model in question had an AOA-sensor-disagree light. Well, it *could* have that, if you were willing to pony up an extra $80 grand per aircraft, as it was an option. Fun fact: neither Lion Air or Ethiopian thought $80K was a reasonable price for a light bulb and therefore had not purchased said option. Come to think of it, I don't think $80K is a reasonable price for a light bulb either.

[Gabriel]

Interesting article on Vox.com re Boeing, aeroplane design, economics, and lots of related matters oh my: https://www.vox.com/2019/4/5/18296646/b ... are-update

An interesting tidbit I haven't seen mentioned here or there before: the a/c model in question had an AOA-sensor-disagree light. Well, it *could* have that, if you were willing to pony up an extra $80 grand per aircraft, as it was an option. Fun fact: neither Lion Air or Ethiopian thought $80K was a reasonable price for a light bulb and therefore had not purchased said option. Come to think of it, I don't think $80K is a reasonable price for a light bulb either.

1- It will part of the retrofit package to make the MAX airworthy again. The AoA disagree light will be standard (and mandatory retrofit). The AoA indicators will still be optional.
2- I suspect neither would have made a difference in either crash.

[flyboy2548m]

The AoA indicators will still be optional.

But they will be included on the 737 MAX GTS Package which will also include leather-wrapped control yokes and carbon fiber cockpit armrests.

[elaw]

The AoA indicators will still be optional.

But they will be included on the 737 MAX GTS Package which will also include leather-wrapped control yokes and carbon fiber cockpit armrests.

Is that the one that includes Alexa?

[Gabriel]

Is that the one that includes Alexa?

That actually could be an interesting safety feature.

"Alexa, what is it doing now?"
"Alexa, tell me the memory items for trim runaway"

[elaw]

"Alexa, what is it doing now?"
Playing... "How soon is now" by The Smiths

"Alexa, tell me the memory items for trim runaway"
Accessing... "Where Is Tim Gunn From Project Runway?"

[Gabriel]

Mentour's deleted video is back!!! Well, sort of... Now it is a "generic" video about miss-trim condition with stuck trim wheel due to aerodynamic forces, any similitude with the Ethiopian 737 MAX MCAS accident is a mere coincidence, or is it?

The "couch" part of the video is totally new and doesn't include the words MCAS, Ethiopian, accident, or MAX anymore.
The sim part is the same but edited, still most of it is there, I can't tell what parts were removed, except clearly the beginning where the incident started as an unreliable speed event (that's why they are trying to hold 4 degrees).

Also, added post-sim couch part explainable roller coaster maneuver.

Very worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoNOVlxJmow

[flyboy2548m]

Mentour's deleted video is back!!! Well, sort of... Now it is a "generic" video about miss-trim condition with stuck trim wheel due to aerodynamic forces, any similitude with the Ethiopian 737 MAX MCAS accident is a mere coincidence, or is it?

The "couch" part of the video is totally new and doesn't include the words MCAS, Ethiopian, accident, or MAX anymore.
The sim part is the same but edited, still most of it is there, I can't tell what parts were removed, except clearly the beginning where the incident started as an unreliable speed event (that's why they are trying to hold 4 degrees).

Also, added post-sim couch part explainable roller coaster maneuver.

Very worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoNOVlxJmow

Only eight more fora to go, Gabriel.

[Gabriel]

Most posts I post either here or there. Some select posts I double post here and there. I think this video is very interesting and relevant for this subject so I posted in both fora. There is no 3rd forum or beyond.

I hope you found it interesting.

[flyboy2548m]

Most posts I post either here or there. Some select posts I double post here and there. I think this video is very interesting and relevant for this subject so I posted in both fora. There is no 3rd forum or beyond.

Your selflessness and dedication to serve your fellow man deserve much admiration. Oh, to the think of the throes of ignorance in which "we" would remain for all eternity if it weren't for you coming through to save the day time and again!

[Gabriel]

Your selflessness and dedication to serve your fellow man deserve much admiration. Oh, to the think of the throes of ignorance in which "we" would remain for all eternity if it weren't for you coming through to save the day time and again!

True, but you are exaggerating with your flattering.

[Gabriel]

No 737 involved, but...

The FAA last Friday grounded all Jets [of a certain type] through an Emergency AD prompted by [the manufacturer] reporting three incidents on [this type of] airplanes of the stall warning and protection system (SWPS) or Electronic Stability & Protection (ESP) System engaging when not appropriate. Over the weekend, [the manufacturer's] senior vice president of sales and marketing told Flying, “Out of an abundance of caution, we immediately began working with the FAA and our internal teams to determine the root cause and began our operator communication process. We proactively and quickly issued two service advisories and one mandatory service bulletin to ensure our operators were up to speed on the issue and to remind them of the proper airplane flight manual (AFM) procedures to follow in case of an angle of attack (AOA) related issue. We then quickly identified the root cause as an AOA sensor hardware issue.”

https://www.flyingmag.com/cirrus-releas ... ne20190423

[3WE]

You keep advocating for those AOA indicators and now all we do is talk about how they MISLEAD crews as well as nice systems designed to fight relentless pull ups...

I dunno, seems to me that they are mostly trouble.

I guess I don't see the harm of having one next to the airspeed indicator for special times when you are gong REAL slow or pulling up measured-but-hard. But I'm starting to think this is secondary-nice-to-have information, if not relatively useless information for normal flight. Just make sure the traditional, more-categorical AOA indicator systems (that use beeps, stick shakers, British men and authoritative women are working properly.

[flyboy2548m]

You keep advocating for those AOA indicators and now all we do is talk about how they MISLEAD crews as well as nice systems designed to fight relentless pull ups...

Who cares what he advocates for? He can push marmite, for all I give a crap...

[3WE]

You keep advocating for those AOA indicators and now all we do is talk about how they MISLEAD crews as well as nice systems designed to fight relentless pull ups...

Who cares what he advocates for? He can push marmite, for all I give a crap...

I dunno man- you got ALL THOSE sensors and indicators (and gauges on vintage aircraft) and the angle of the wings into the wind is technically important...and some folks have really botched AOA management...one could THINK it ranks a place on the panel.

Now- if you believe it’s uselessness for most practical purposes, then say that and throw in half a sentence why- unless Jo already covered that.

While it doesn’t matter what Gabieee or I think, the question of whether AOA indication belongs on the instrument panel is interesting.

[Gabriel]

Are you ATLcrew?

I don't understand the people that takes the time to quote you only to reply that they don't have the slightest interest in what you are saying. And do that over and over again.

This must have a name in the psychology or psychiatry manuals.

[flyboy2548m]

Are you ATLcrew?

I don't understand the people that takes the time to quote you only to reply that they don't have the slightest interest in what you are saying. And do that over and over again.

This must have a name in the psychology or psychiatry manuals.

Funny you should mention those manuals. Some of them talk of, for example, mosaic psychosis, a combination of narcissism and priceless ideas syndrome. You should read up on that. Evanie probably should, too.

[elaw]

Wow, you're a shrink as well as a pilot? I'm impressed.

[3WE]

Wow, you're a shrink as well as a pilot? I'm impressed.

Probably not_a licensed shrink.

However, now that he’s a major league captain, he’s making similar wages to Putt-4-Par, works only 4 days a month and has extra time for reading. (Exact numbers may vary).

[elaw]

And then there's this: https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... t-n1005836

[3WE]

***And then there's this:***

Several comments...

1. There really has never been an opportunity to NOT choose the 'MinLav - it was grounded before the word really got out.
2. Yes- but come on, given the crazy good safety record, is it really realistic to choose one over the other.
-Of note is trip report geeks who DO seek out particular aircraft...I guess I have once or twice peeked at the aeroplanie...is it an RJ...a real plane.
3. Given last-minute changes- can your really guarantee you'll get the right plane too?
4. Aircraft types tend to be a bit unclear on booking sites- and each airline may have secret code names versus the parlour-forum -somethinghundred standard.
5. There is that non-PC comment that maybe this crash would not have happened in the USA any way- because ALL of our pilots are like Boeing Bobby or Dummy or flyboy...so what's it matter.