Tip Tanks

[IntheShade]

I've told everyone before about the Navion that crashed when I was younger.

Last night my friend crashed in the same exact scenerio--feeding off the tip tanks for T/O on a Bonnanza and ended up the same--two broken backs from spinal compression. Both hit flat.

In both cases the tip tanks were after market additions. I now am of the opinion that they are crap because they are easily mismanged.

My friends in the Navion lived for a week prior until both died. I really hope that this one ends differntly.

I have stated it before but I will again. Everyone needs to understand thier fuel system and use it correctly.

[Dmmoore]

Charles,
I have installed Brittan / Norman tip tanks on several different Bonanza's and two Navions. These installations were accomplished in the 60's so a current installation may be different but both installations (Bonanza and Navion) the tip tanks are placarded "Not for use during takeoff and landing".

The non Range-master (North American / Ryan built) Navions main tanks cross feed together so the fuel feed valve is on and off, not a tank selector valve. To feed from the tip tanks the tip selector is selected to Left or Right and the main tank fuel valve is turned off.

The Bonanza got a new 5 position valve. Fuel feeds only from the tank selected.

Hopefully your friend will recover fully.

[ZeroAltitude]

Moved to aviation forum

[GlennAB1]

Sorry to hear about your friend/s.

That sucks!

I hope he/they make a full recovery.

[3WE]

Tough question Shadey:

Why was this the tip-tanks fault?

I can follow you on composites, but, aside from some additional fuel management procedures, the tanks main "action" is to hold extra avgas....

That should not be a hazard.

[VectorForFood]

Sorry to hear about your friends Shadey.

I also hope they make a full recovery and get flying again too!

[IntheShade]

The Tip Tanks I am speaking of were modifications, not original equipment.

The flaw in them is they have no boost pumps and as Don stated cannot be used for T/O or landing. Thus they are a cruise tank.

In both cases I know what happened. They flew in and landed on the tip tanks, then on the next T/O remained on the tip tanks. In one case every fuel tank on the airplane was full, in the other they weren't.

When I began to fly complex airplanes I learned GUMP Check entereing dowwind; of which the "G" was Gas.

Gas meant boost pumps, fuel levels, fuel selector valve. If you did it every time it set you up for the next T/O, even though it is important to do a complete T/O check prior to every T/O.

So although I acknowledge there were procedural errors as the root cause in both cases, the inherent flaw in the design of the mod is that an error manifest itself in the most critical phase of flight and procedurally rears its head in a systematic fashion and the consquences are to great for the 12 glallon extra fuel for cruise.

These two accidents were almost complety identical.

[3WE]

These two accidents were almost complety identical.

Frightening similarities also reveal themselves over and over in crashes with:

-Takeoffs with mis-rigged controls (I know, this personally affects you)
-Stalling out of base to final turns with a tail wind.
-Continued flight into IMC without IFR currency or licensing.
-Flight into icing
-Engine-out landings
-IMC flight without vacum-powered instruments
-Botched NDB approaches
-Landing in strong gusty winds

Proper use of checklists, Situational Awareness , and competent fundamental airmanship help with many of these.

Gas: Both
Undercarriage: Down and welded
Mixture: Rich
Prop: out in front, spinning (since it only has one setting)

[GlennAB1]

The Tip Tanks I am speaking of were modifications, not original equipment.

The flaw in them is they have no boost pumps and as Don stated cannot be used for T/O or landing. Thus they are a cruise tank.

In both cases I know what happened. They flew in and landed on the tip tanks, then on the next T/O remained on the tip tanks. In one case every fuel tank on the airplane was full, in the other they weren't.

When I began to fly complex airplanes I learned GUMP Check entereing dowwind; of which the "G" was Gas.

Gas meant boost pumps, fuel levels, fuel selector valve. If you did it every time it set you up for the next T/O, even though it is important to do a complete T/O check prior to every T/O.

So although I acknowledge there were procedural errors as the root cause in both cases, the inherent flaw in the design of the mod is that an error manifest itself in the most critical phase of flight and procedurally rears its head in a systematic fashion and the consquences are to great for the 12 glallon extra fuel for cruise.

These two accidents were almost complety identical.

That's Latent human error for ya.......

[flyboy2548m]

Frightening similarities also reveal themselves over and over in crashes with:

-Takeoffs with mis-rigged controls (I know, this personally affects you)
-Stalling out of base to final turns with a tail wind.
-Continued flight into IMC without IFR currency or licensing.
-Flight into icing
-Engine-out landings
-IMC flight without vacum-powered instruments
-Botched NDB approaches
-Landing in strong gusty winds

Proper use of checklists, Situational Awareness , and competent fundamental airmanship help with many of these.

Gas: Both
Undercarriage: Down and welded
Mixture: Rich
Prop: out in front, spinning (since it only has one setting)

3BS, you woudn't know fundamental airmanship or proper use of checklists from a hole in the wall, so just STFU for a change.

[tds]

IMC flight without vacum-powered instruments

Pedantic, but not all IFR airplanes have vacuum-powered instruments.

And best wishes for a speedy recovery to your friends, ITS.

[Dmmoore]

<SNIP>-IMC flight without vacum-powered instruments

As a minimum, vacuum powered instruments (gyro's, VG & DG) are required for flight into IMC however, electric powered gyro's are more dependable, lighter and more expensive. Solid state gyro's are even better (even lighter and more costly ).

I converted the vacuum powered gyro's to electric power many years ago. I did it because it saved a few pounds (7 if I remember correctly) and I found a set of overhauled gyro's (removed from a Cessna 421 that had a was being converted to use a flight director system) for a reasonable price ($2,500 for both). The conversion eliminated the vacuum pump, pressure regulator, filter housing and associated plumbing.

Vacuum powered gyro's are fine for aircraft flown either VFR or where limited IFR flight is required. I recommend electric or electronic gyro's for any aircraft where IFR flight is intended to be a part of the normal flight operations.

[3WE]

IMC flight without vacum-powered instruments

Pedantic, but not all IFR airplanes have vacuum-powered instruments.

And best wishes for a speedy recovery to your friends, ITS.

IMC flight after the loss of the instruments often powered by vacum.....there

[3WE]

Gas: Both
Undercarriage: Down and welded
Mixture: Rich
Prop: out in front, spinning (since it only has one setting)

3BS, you woudn't know fundamental airmanship or proper use of checklists from a hole in the wall, so just STFU for a change.

I know that you have a rule that only ATP's can post here, and that the posts should be stuff like Concur and Indeed, but I claim to know what the GUMP checlist is from a hole in the wall (including the traditional version for retractable gear and constant speed prop.)

I may be a dumbass...just not a total dumbass- but that concept is a bit too complex for you to understand in your black and white world.

[flyboy2548m]

I may be a dumbass...just not a total dumbass...

Good for you. Keep your "partial dumbass" garbage to yourself. Have you not spent enough years wasting bandwidth?

[Verbal]

Hey baby, nice tip tanks.

[tds]

IMC flight after the loss of the instruments often powered by vacum.....there

You mean, traditionally powered by vacuum?

[tds]

Hey baby, nice tip tanks.

Is it mandatory to exhaust the tip tanks before switching to mains?

[flyboy2548m]

Is it mandatory to exhaust the tip tanks before switching to mains?

Depends on the setup.

[Dmmoore]

Hey baby, nice tip tanks.

Is it mandatory to exhaust the tip tanks before switching to mains?

Tip tanks installed by STC (after market) typically feed fuel from the lowest point. Typical usage would be:
Takeoff and initial climb = Main tank(s(.
Cruise = Burn tip fuel, switch back to mains.
Approach and land = Main tank(s).

Aircraft like older twin Cessna's use tip tanks as mains. They are unrestricted.

Some aircraft are restricted to landing's with tip tanks empty.

[Verbal]

Takeoff and initial climb = Main tank(s(.
Cruise = Burn tip fuel, switch back to mains.
Approach and land = Main tank(s).

Thanks, I'll try that out tonight.

[GlennAB1]

IMC flight after the loss of the instruments often powered by vacum.....there

You mean, traditionally powered by vacuum?

Try: Historically!

[IntheShade]

Aircraft like older twin Cessna's use tip tanks as mains. They are unrestricted.

.

The reason they are unrestricted is that they use boost pumps unlike the mod tanks which don't.

Earlies model of 310 I flew was a B Model and newest were some of the last made for American Flyers. There was a high and low boost pump setting. High was for T/O and landings. Low was for cruise.

Which reminds me of a certain AD.com member who called the Cessna 310 a "tricky beast".

Pretty funny stuff.

[3WE]

Which reminds me of a certain AD.com member who called the Cessna 310 a "tricky beast".

Perhaps there were a number of incidents where pilots upgraded from something like a 172 and had some classical, often repeated issues with stuff like speed, engine failures and retractable landing gear?

I have heard the 310 referred to as "hot". Of course that is a relative judgement.

[IntheShade]

Indeed.