IFR Flying

[PurduePilot]

I had my second IFR lesson the other day. Departed LAF in the PA28-161 and my instructor put me under the hood right after takeoff. We departed the Class D airspace to the north and did some maneuvering for a while. Slow flight, power off stall, power on stall, steep turns, and then partial-panel (no AI, no DG) flight for a while with timed turns, but didn't try doing turns with just the whiskey compass. After the vacuum system magically started working again, my CFII told me to go direct Boiler (BVT) VOR and expect the VOR-A approach at Lafayette. I tuned in BVT on the nav radio and flew direct to it with the CDI.

Issue number 1) Without DME and therefore without really knowing how far away from the station you are: As your CDI starts to go to one side or another, how do you know if you're simply getting off course and should follow the needle to get back on course, or if you are nearing the station and should just maintain heading until the TO/FROM indicator flips? At first I assumed I just needed more wind correction so I shifted a little bit, then I started briefing the approach and when I looked back to the CDI maybe 10 seconds later, it was WAY off and I had know idea if I was way off course and should turn back to the left or if I was just so close to the station that I should wait it out. Any pointers here?

Eventually, the TO/FROM flipped and I knew that meant station passage, so I put in the outbound course heading and turned to intercept that. I continued on the approach course heading for UPUKE. I had EARLE tuned and identified on the ADF, had the ADF card turned to match the airplane heading and was watching for 211 on it to indicate we were at UPUKE. Descended to 2000 after UPUKE and waited for BATLE. Basically, I did an okay job following the approach and knowing where I was. I remembered the 5 T's (Time, Turn, Twist, Throttle, Talk) at the fixes, but when we got to BATLE, I got way behind the airplane. My instructor had a different set of 5 T's that he wanted me to use for the FAF (Time, Tires, Trailing Edge, Throttle, Talk), but I felt like I should be doing more (GUMPS), and was just generally slow with starting down to the MDA and forgot all about watching the time to the MAP. When I was finally done getting set up after crossing the FAF, my instructor told me to look outside and we were already almost on top of the airport and still way above MDA.

After writing all this out, I think my problem was I just generally was unsure of what needed to be done and when it needed to be done. Do any of the experienced IFR pilots on here have any pointers or mnemonics for approaches and IFR flying in general?

[Putt4Par]

Is your goal to become an airline pilot one day?

[flyboy2548m]

Issue number 1) Without DME and therefore without really knowing how far away from the station you are: As your CDI starts to go to one side or another, how do you know if you're simply getting off course and should follow the needle to get back on course, or if you are nearing the station and should just maintain heading until the TO/FROM indicator flips? At first I assumed I just needed more wind correction so I shifted a little bit, then I started briefing the approach and when I looked back to the CDI maybe 10 seconds later, it was WAY off and I had know idea if I was way off course and should turn back to the left or if I was just so close to the station that I should wait it out. Any pointers here?

FWIW, I think you were basically set up to fail here. To expect someone who's still learning to track even one radial to shoot an approach while tracking two, one of them being an NDB bearing is a little unreasonable. I don't know anyone who could have pulled this off on their second IFR lesson. In fact, as I recall, under the Jeppesen curriculum, approaches are introduced in lesson 11, but I digress.

As for your question about the needle, if you're just off course some distance from the station, the needle will generally lean in one direction. It may bounce somewhat, but if you're right of course, the needle will be trending further and further left between bounces. OTOH, if you're getting close to station passage, the needle will deflect all the way one way then the other.

The other issue here may be that your -II wanted to show you the effect of distractions, one of them being the approach briefing. It sounds like you were briefing while already tracking the navaid. You should do it way earlier than that, so that once you're setting up to track the VOR, you can focus on that.

Don't let it get you down, you'll get it.

[flyboy2548m]

Is your goal to become an airline pilot one day?

Why is that relevant, Finfly?

[Dmmoore]

I'm sure your instructor will clue you in before too long.
I'm a VFR guy I'll give you a few hints that work for me. Even VFR pilots need to know where they are!
1. You should always know where you are along any radial / airway with or without DME or looking out the window.
2. The speed which the CDI responds to a course correction is an indication of your position along the radial. The faster the change takes place, the closer you are to the station.
3. Use the ADF or a second VOR to plot a cross radial to pin point your position.
4. If operating single VOR tune a nearby VOR, shoot a cross radial, plot it and reselect your base course VOR.
Have fun and enjoy the training. It's a lot of work but well worth the effort and expense.

[Dmmoore]

See Flyboy can give good, relevant info.

[PurduePilot]

Is your goal to become an airline pilot one day?

In the back of my mind, somewhere, I suppose it still is... Mostly, I've just resigned myself to a career as an engineer or whatever, but even if that is the case I still would fly for my own enjoyment. If the airline industry booms after this recession, then maybe I'll have a shot at it. I'm obviously working on my instrument rating, and I will probably get commercial after that just for the hell of it. After I have commercial, I'll see how my life is looking and if it seems reasonable I may go for CFI and take it from there. I'm really just playing the flight thing by ear, while working on my degree in AET from Purdue.

[PurduePilot]

FWIW, I think you were basically set up to fail here. To expect someone who's still learning to track even one radial to shoot an approach while tracking two, one of them being an NDB bearing is a little unreasonable. I don't know anyone who could have pulled this off on their second IFR lesson. In fact, as I recall, under the Jeppesen curriculum, approaches are introduced in lesson 11, but I digress.

We're using the Cessna curriculum, but going through it kind of fast and combining "flights". I don't have any problems with aircraft control, really (my first lesson was a 2.3 hour cross country in hard IFR ). I think the majority of my time in the airplane should be with procedures, cross-countries, and approaches, and getting used to working with ATC in the IFR environment.

As for your question about the needle, if you're just off course some distance from the station, the needle will generally lean in one direction. It may bounce somewhat, but if you're right of course, the needle will be trending further and further left between bounces. OTOH, if you're getting close to station passage, the needle will deflect all the way one way then the other.

What do you mean by the needle bouncing? If you're on course and approaching the station, does it start to oscillate back and forth?

The other issue here may be that your -II wanted to show you the effect of distractions, one of them being the approach briefing. It sounds like you were briefing while already tracking the navaid. You should do it way earlier than that, so that once you're setting up to track the VOR, you can focus on that.

Probably true. At one point earlier in the flight while I was partial-panel turns, he started monitoring two different Center frequencies, as well as a HIWAS and the ADF, and he started trying to make conversation with me. That got a little noisy.

[supersean]

Issue number 1) Without DME and therefore without really knowing how far away from the station you are: As your CDI starts to go to one side or another, how do you know if you're simply getting off course and should follow the needle to get back on course, or if you are nearing the station and should just maintain heading until the TO/FROM indicator flips? At first I assumed I just needed more wind correction so I shifted a little bit, then I started briefing the approach and when I looked back to the CDI maybe 10 seconds later, it was WAY off and I had know idea if I was way off course and should turn back to the left or if I was just so close to the station that I should wait it out. Any pointers here?

FWIW, I think you were basically set up to fail here. To expect someone who's still learning to track even one radial to shoot an approach while tracking two, one of them being an NDB bearing is a little unreasonable. I don't know anyone who could have pulled this off on their second IFR lesson. In fact, as I recall, under the Jeppesen curriculum, approaches are introduced in lesson 11, but I digress.

As for your question about the needle, if you're just off course some distance from the station, the needle will generally lean in one direction. It may bounce somewhat, but if you're right of course, the needle will be trending further and further left between bounces. OTOH, if you're getting close to station passage, the needle will deflect all the way one way then the other.

The other issue here may be that your -II wanted to show you the effect of distractions, one of them being the approach briefing. It sounds like you were briefing while already tracking the navaid. You should do it way earlier than that, so that once you're setting up to track the VOR, you can focus on that.

Don't let it get you down, you'll get it.

Bravo FB, BRAVO!

[IntheShade]

Here is some experience that is so basic it won't be thill you are very advanced that you'll understand.

You need to learn to fly headings. Then you won't be asking questions about chasing needles, station sensitiveity, wind correction while tracking, being off the CDI, being off course or how to check cross radials.

FlyBoy is correct. Your Instructor overloaded you for the second lesson.

You can take this for what it is worth: You need to change Instructors because this one has no idea how to train an Instrument Pilot and is going to do nothing but screw you up for a long time.

[flyboy2548m]

See Flyboy can give good, relevant info.

Could that be because Brad asked a good, relevant question, one that is immediately pertinent to the kind of flying he is actually currently doing? Compare that to pointless drivel posted by the likes of Gabriel, 3BS and you.

[flyboy2548m]

What do you mean by the needle bouncing? If you're on course and approaching the station, does it start to oscillate back and forth?

Precisely so.

[RadarContactLost]

What ever happened to "climb at XXX rate" and "turn to XXX heading?" Now "turn to XXX and descend and maintain XXXX?" All those standard FAA instrument training patterns? It sounds like you're in the high speed program.

After a while you get a feel for how fast the VOR needle should swing. Plus in the real world you'd have an ETA to the FAF. Or you could tell the instructor you're going to turn 80 degrees to the inbound course, see how long it takes for the inbound radial to change 10 degrees (in seconds) and 1/10 of that time is your time to station (in minutes.) Eighty seconds for a 10 degree change, you're 8 minutes to the station. My copy of the Instrument Flying Handbook is a bit old but it doesn't have A/N ranges in it.

[PurduePilot]

What ever happened to "climb at XXX rate" and "turn to XXX heading?" Now "turn to XXX and descend and maintain XXXX?" All those standard FAA instrument training patterns? It sounds like you're in the high speed program.

After a while you get a feel for how fast the VOR needle should swing. Plus in the real world you'd have an ETA to the FAF. Or you could tell the instructor you're going to turn 80 degrees to the inbound course, see how long it takes for the inbound radial to change 10 degrees (in seconds) and 1/10 of that time is your time to station (in minutes.) Eighty seconds for a 10 degree change, you're 8 minutes to the station. My copy of the Instrument Flying Handbook is a bit old but it doesn't have A/N ranges in it.

I'll give him a couple more hours and see how things are going... Maybe he just thought I was ready for more than I actually was.
What do you mean by an ETA to the FAF? I need to get out my Instrument Procedures book, but would you not be given a vector and distance to the IAF? Would you ever be vectored to the FAF on any kind of approach?

[IntheShade]

What do you mean by an ETA to the FAF? I need to get out my Instrument Procedures book, but would you not be given a vector and distance to the IAF? Would you ever be vectored to the FAF on any kind of approach?

Please--and I mean it

GET ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR

If he has you shooting approaches and you are asking these questions

YOU ARE WASTEING YOUR TIME AND MONEY

Which I wouldn't rail against except

THE TRAINING/HEARTACHE YOU"LL HAVE TO HAVE TO CORRECT THE BAD TRAINING WILL BE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE

Do me a favor. Although I don't believe in the psycho-babble required to get a Instructor Rating please ask you Instructor if

HE KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS THE LAW OF PRIMACY

[GlennAB1]

I think he was practicing the Law Of Intensity........

[supersean]

What do you mean by an ETA to the FAF? I need to get out my Instrument Procedures book, but would you not be given a vector and distance to the IAF? Would you ever be vectored to the FAF on any kind of approach?

Please--and I mean it

GET ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR

If he has you shooting approaches and you are asking these questions

YOU ARE WASTEING YOUR TIME AND MONEY

Which I wouldn't rail against except

THE TRAINING/HEARTACHE YOU"LL HAVE TO HAVE TO CORRECT THE BAD TRAINING WILL BE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE

Do me a favor. Although I don't believe in the psycho-babble required to get a Instructor Rating please ask you Instructor if

HE KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS THE LAW OF PRIMACY

Concur... (seriously) even with my limited FS2004 and FSX experience I know the answer to your questions.

[flyboy2548m]

I'll give him a couple more hours and see how things are going... Maybe he just thought I was ready for more than I actually was.
What do you mean by an ETA to the FAF? I need to get out my Instrument Procedures book, but would you not be given a vector and distance to the IAF? Would you ever be vectored to the FAF on any kind of approach?

I think RCL meant ETA to the MAP which is published on the approach plate, unless the MAP is the navaid itself. Do I dare ask why you're only now thinking of getting out your Instrument Flying Manual rather than reviewing it thoroughly prior to starting IFR flying? The airplane is a terrible classroom for learning theories and procedures, and you've admitted to not being sure what should be happening and when. You wouldn't be in this position had you re-read the manual, especially given that you took Instrument Ground some time ago. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to rip on you, but flight training is a two-way street. Even if your -II is incompetent, that's no excuse for you to be unprepared, which you obviously are.

[PurduePilot]

Well in fairness, I'm still in the first third or so of the Cessna Pilot School computer-based ground course. They're quite slow and frustrating. I've spent probably 15 hours on it and they're just now getting into chart interpretation, altitudes, and things like that. In any case, I feel like learning standardized procedures and regulations is more my responsibility than is my instructor's responsibility to spoon feed me. With ground instruction running $40/hour at Lafayette Aviation, I'd rather learn as much on my own as I can and just review items with him as necessary.

[3WE]

As for your question about the needle, if you're just off course some distance from the station, the needle will generally lean in one direction. It may bounce somewhat, but if you're right of course, the needle will be trending further and further left between bounces. OTOH, if you're getting close to station passage, the needle will deflect all the way one way then the other.

What do you mean by the needle bouncing? If you're on course and approaching the station, does it start to oscillate back and forth?

1) Yes, it can osciallate (an MSFS weakness is that radio-beacon-instruments are rock-solid) - I assume it's the atmosphere affecting radio waves, or electronic imperfections in your VFR tuner, or maybe even the VOR station?????

2) Some things about you not knowing where you were and being overwhelmed:
-Don't forget, Flyboy and ITS fly with two pilots, have an autopilot and don't have to worry about the mixture or the carb heat, those are some hellacious resources that you do not have.

So, Don say's the secret is to "stay ahead of everything".

He's right, but what if your arrival airport goes below minimums or something's happening on the plane requiring an immediate landing that toally messes you up.....

In that case, instead of getting overloaded, you get obnoxious and make Vector for Food help you- "How far from the station am I?"

It is probably not a bad lesson to get overloaded once or twice, just so you appreciate it.

Flyboy- how recent does one have to have flown an aircraft to be worthy of asking questions on a web forum?

[flyboy2548m]

Flyboy- how recent does one have to have flown an aircraft to be worthy of asking questions on a web forum?

If said one is you, I don't care if you came out of an airplane ten minutes ago, keep it clammed up.

[PurduePilot]

Such harshness on this forum. ^^^

I was going to go flying once more before going under the knife, but it didn't work out. Tomorrow I'll be driving home to Ohio and on Tuesday I get to have four wisdom teeth extracted. I figure I will be out of action for at least a week depending on how long I need the Vicodin, but I plan to be studying Gleim's and the FAA books and working on my computer-based training program while I'm coherent. Should be back over here and continuing the training a week or two after the surgery.

[flyboy2548m]

Such harshness on this forum. ^^^

I was going to go flying once more before going under the knife, but it didn't work out. Tomorrow I'll be driving home to Ohio and on Tuesday I get to have four wisdom teeth extracted. I figure I will be out of action for at least a week depending on how long I need the Vicodin, but I plan to be studying Gleim's and the FAA books and working on my computer-based training program while I'm coherent. Should be back over here and continuing the training a week or two after the surgery.

I was only laid up for a day, I didn't need vicodin, the pain wasn't that bad.

[PurduePilot]

I've heard some people say they went back to school/work the next day, and some people (like my brother) were in bed all week bitching and moaning. I actually really hope I'm better in a day or two, now, because I just found out about this cool little fly-in near Kalamazoo/Battle Creek, Michigan, (105nm from my home airport) next Saturday: http://www.love2fly.us/

[PurduePilot]

Well here it is, 5:15 in the morning and I still can't sleep, so I decided to do some studying. The Cessna program is finally starting to get into published procedures. I picked up the local low enroute chart and terminal procedures book the other day (NACO/government publications)and I have been going through them learning how they are organized and how to read them. I know a lot of pilots like to use Jeppesen charts and plates. However, I've had a few in the past and, while they seem a little bit nicer to look at, the paper they print on is just so darn thin it's like a one-ply kleenex. Are there really any advantages to using the Jepp charts? Any thoughts on having the NACO terminal procedures book handy but primarily using computer-printed kneeboard-sized copies (like the one I posted above) for destination and alternate(s) so as not to be stuck using the plates bound in the book? I know with airline flying, you're going into different airports every day so the convenience of the Jepp books is probably a major advantage so you can just open it up, grab the plates you need, and after you're done put them back in where they belong, but for recreational flying is it really necessary?