787 troubles, the latest news..

[Verbal]

Any reason for preferring the #2 over #3 position?

I am not going to touch that one.

[Robert Hilton]

Any reason for preferring the #2 over #3 position?

It looks better in the photo.

[Dmmoore]

Any reason for preferring the #2 over #3 position?

No reason that I know of.

When Pratt and Whitney certified the JT9-3A engine for the 747 they used a B-52 and mounted the engine in place of engines 5 and 6 (where #3 would mount on a 4 engine aircraft).

I think it's a coin toss.

[Robert Hilton]

Any reason for preferring the #2 over #3 position?

No reason that I know of.

When Pratt and Whitney certified the JT9-3A engine for the 747 they used a B-52 and mounted the engine in place of engines 5 and 6 (where #3 would mount on a 4 engine aircraft).

I think it's a coin toss.

Or whichever side of the a/c they approach first.

[Gabriel]

Any reason for preferring the #2 over #3 position?

It comes first?

[DeskFlyer]

Any reason for preferring the #2 over #3 position?

It comes first?

...said the actress to the bishop.

[ZilogMan]

How about CG closer (to the airframe) as another good reason for having the GE there?
(from a guy who really doesn't know anything about this kind of stuff - in short: parlo(u)r-talking)

[Verbal]

Boeing Shares Drop on 787 Delay Report
Associated Press Newswires 03/07/2008
Author: Lauren Tara Lacapra
Copyright 2008. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

NEW YORK (AP) -- Shares of Boeing Co. fell Friday after an analyst indicated possible delays with the aircraft maker's much-anticipated 787 deliveries.

Boeing shares fell $1.16 to $78.35 in morning trading.

The company said in January that it would delay the inaugural flight of its new 787 jetliner up to three months, pushing delivery of the first plane into early 2009. That delay -- Boeing's third for the popular model -- was caused by shortfalls in its supply chain and slow progress on the assembly line.

Goldman Sachs analyst Richard Safran, citing undisclosed sources, said the company will not power up its new 787 until the end of June, three months later than expected. As a result, Safran expects deliveries to be delayed until the third quarter of 2009 instead of Boeing's early 2009 target.

Boeing has received more than 850 orders for the 787 jet from 56 customers.

A Boeing spokeswoman said Friday that Safran's report was merely speculation. The company is still undergoing an assessment and will release the conclusion at the end of the quarter, after telling its customers.

Spokeswoman Yvonne Leach said she could not confirm or deny the report, because the appraisal is not complete.

"Truly, until that assessment's done, I think we don't know," Leach said. "We're still doing that work."

Nonetheless, Safran reduced his earnings estimates and price target for Boeing, saying the company "continues to underestimate the amount of work required."

[Sickbag]

Cripes!

[Dmmoore]

Verbal. I call your attention to an ADC thread now long gone where the prospect of Boeing's production schedule being too optimistic was being discussed.
TOLD YOU nanna nanna nu nu.
Boeing should have learned from Airbus problems with the A380, not repeat them.
True, Boeing is keeping their customers informed where Airbus did not but it does not excuse the delay its self.

[reloaded]

The 787 will make the A380 look like right on schedule. I have the feeling we just saw the tip of the iceberg. Probably it will get worse. Good luck to Boeing!

[Schorsch]

Verbal. I call your attention to an ADC thread now long gone where the prospect of Boeing's production schedule being too optimistic was being discussed.
TOLD YOU nanna nanna nu nu.
Boeing should have learned from Airbus problems with the A380, not repeat them.
True, Boeing is keeping their customers informed where Airbus did not but it does not excuse the delay its self.

What a non sense! Boeing told what when?
Currently Boeing makes a press conference every 2 to 3 month announcing another delay.
First flight dates were August, September, October, November, December, end of first quarter, end of second quarter and I guess Boeing will say beginning of third quarter soon. Me as an engineer have the impression that the people that work with the aircraft are either

• simple liars as they just don't want to tell the truth in one piece (like telling in October 07 first flight is in May 08)
• have no idea what they are doing as they cannot predict their schedule with a precision of one or two month
• are apparently not truly able to built aircraft

Imagine you have a subordinate who tells you constantly he will be ready in 2 month. That is exactly what Boeing is doing. Currently they are guessing a new delivery schedule. I guess it ain't worth the paper it is printed on, like the previous 3.
Does someone remember the idea of September to have first flight in December and deliver in May? That was so hilarious, if I was Boeing CEO I would have fired the guy who said that for bullshitting the customers and demonstrating such a lack of aviation understanding. Didn't once engineers rule Boeing? Currently, it looks like all decision takers at Boeing are business guys that know aircraft from the Discovery Channel.

I always like to repeat that the A380 achieved its certification on time of the revised schedule (delay of 6 month announced before first flight). Additionally, they did not take apart the aircraft after Roll-Out (which was actually indoors), achieved Power On long before that Roll Out and flew the aircraft something like 1 and a half month after the originally announced time window (first quarter 2005). Although the delays due to cabin installation disaster were caused by flawed management of technical problems and solutions, shortage of qualified people and simply lack of understanding, the aircraft itself was assembled, tested and certified quite flawlessly.

How about the 8th July as first flight, would read 07-08-08 or just 788?

[Schorsch]

When is the next Boeing press conference?
Isn't it a bit damaging for the company when the information leaks out two weeks ahead and Boeing management is trailing the news?

In August I was actually trusted Boeing that their schedule was somehow OK, some delays always occur and nobody needs to be ashamed for it.
Now we face a delay of close to one year in first flight, unparalleled in civil aviation at least as far as I know.

[Giles]

unparalleled in civil aviation at least as far as I know.

what a total air disaster

[Verbal]

[*] simple liars as they just don't want to tell the truth in one piece (like telling in October 07 first flight is in May 08)
[*] have no idea what they are doing as they cannot predict their schedule with a precision of one or two month
[*] are apparently not truly able to built aircraft

Yes, those are the only three possible explanations. You're welcome.

Verbal. I call your attention to an ADC thread now long gone where the prospect of Boeing's production schedule being too optimistic was being discussed.
TOLD YOU nanna nanna nu nu.

Can't recall that one. Please provide a link. Thanks in advance.

[Robert Hilton]

Verbal. I call your attention to an ADC thread now long gone where the prospect of Boeing's production schedule being too optimistic was being discussed.
TOLD YOU nanna nanna nu nu.

Can't recall that one. Please provide a link. Thanks in advance.

Have you been raiding the drugs cabinet yourself?

[Schorsch]

A few on Boeing's great information politics:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b ... ing12.html

Quotes:

An executive with a European lessor said he expects his 787 deliveries to be pushed far out again. Yet his company is getting any details from Boeing, he said, putting management in a difficult situation with the bankers providing its financing.

It would have been preferable for Boeing to have announced one 18-month delay back in October, the executive said. Boeing management would have "looked like heroes" if they had then delivered sooner.

"The production ramp-up is going to be slower" than previously announced, said a senior executive with an airplane-leasing company, a Boeing customer. "It was always aggressive. Now it's not achievable."

He said customers have lost faith in Boeing because of the cascade of delays preceded by promises that everything is fine. He said the conference chatter is "Boeing didn't learn anything from the A380."

So Boeing is following the same "Salami-Tactics" Airbus used. Seems to be an industry common.

[Verbal]

So Boeing is following the same "Salami-Tactics" Airbus used.

Are you GerryW?

[Schorsch]

So Boeing is following the same "Salami-Tactics" Airbus used.

Are you GerryW?

Are you Boeing?

[Verbal]

Are you Boeing?

Are you Karl?

[el]

Are you Karl?

I think one day we should have a ADCom class of 2005 reunion at a London curry house.

[ZilogMan]

Are you Karl?

I think one day we should have a ADCom class of 2005 reunion at a London curry house.

No no no! In Quebec City, where else?

[Verbal]

Orders flow in for 35 Dreamliners, 50 other jets
Seattle Times 03/13/2008
Author: James Wallace
(Copyright 2008)

The Boeing Co. has won orders for 85 more planes, including 35 Dreamliners.

Although Boeing listed the 787 orders as unidentified, sources said the order is from one customer that has not previously bought the plane. That's an indication that interest in the 787 remains strong, even though the program is behind schedule and many industry analysts are predicting a further delay.

Boeing has 892 firm orders for the Dreamliner, a more efficient midsize jet that will have a composite airframe instead of aluminum.

Depending on the 787 model that the mystery customer ordered, the total value of the 35-plane deal at list prices is worth $5.5 billion to $7 billion. But customers receive substantial discounts off the sticker price.

The latest 787 orders were posted on Boeing's Web site Thursday, along with orders for 40 single-aisle 737s and 10 777s.

It was the second time this year that Boeing has won a large 787 order and not identified the customer. In January, the Seattle P-I reported that a previous customer had ordered 23 more of the planes. Those 23 planes are still listed as "unidentified," along with the 35 new orders.

Boeing says it is up to the customer if they want to be identified on its order book.

With the latest batch of orders, Boeing has sold 275 jets so far in 2008.

But it still trails Airbus, which had 366 firm orders through February.

Capped by a record 2007, Boeing has sold more than 1,000 planes each of the last three years. Boeing won gross orders for 1,423 planes last year. That was 373 more than it sold in 2006, which had been its best year ever.

Boeing had 1,413 net orders in 2007. The net includes cancellations.

But Boeing is predicting a more normal sales year in 2008, as is Airbus. Boeing has said orders could be half what they were in 2007, though that still would be considered a good year.

Earlier this week, an Airbus executive predicted the company would sell around 700 jets in 2008. Airbus beat Boeing in gross sales last year, but its net total was 1,341 planes.

Boeing beat Airbus in orders in 2006 for the first time since 2000.

So far this year, Boeing has won 75 orders of its 787, along with 26 orders for the bigger 777. Like Airbus, the bulk of Boeing's orders in 2008 have been for its single-aisle plane, the 737.

Of the 366 Airbus orders through February, 275 are for its single-aisle A320 family.

Airbus also has won 63 orders this year for its A350, which is being developed to compete against the 787. The A350 is not scheduled to enter service until at least 2013.

The first 787s were supposed to have been delivered to airlines starting in May, but the program has been rocked by a series of delays, the result of snags and parts shortages in the new global production system that Boeing is using to build the Dreamliner. The first 787 still has not been finished and remains in Boeing's Everett factory.

First flight of the Dreamliner, originally set for late August or early September of 2007, has been delayed until at least late June, and sources have said even that date is uncertain.

Boeing is re-examining its flight test and delivery schedule and has said it will announce the results at the end of March or April. When the last 787 delay of three months was announced earlier this year, Boeing said the first planes would be delivered early next year. Many industry analysts expect that to slip until later in 2009.

[el]

No no no! In Quebec City, where else?

That's where we go afterwards for some leisurely snow-shoveling.

[Rabbi O'Genius]

Orders flow in for 35 Dreamliners, 50 other jets
Seattle Times 03/13/2008
Author: James Wallace
(Copyright 2008)
.................Boeing is re-examining its flight test and delivery schedule and has said it will announce the results at the end of March or April..................

When you can't even be sure just when you'll be able to announce exactly how late you're going to be..............