The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Discussion of aviation issues which are not safety related (airline operations, pilot contracts, aviation industry news, etc.)

Moderators: FrankM, el, Dmmoore

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:25 am

WHY KAL 007 WAS NOT WARNED: FINALLY, THE REASON OUTED

Why was Korean Air Lines Flt. 007 carrying 269 occupants including 22 children under the age of 12 years and Congressman Larry McDonald not stopped that fateful day Sept. 1, 1983 when the Soviets shot it down? Why was it not warned it was about to enter into restricted Soviet territory, especially in the light of the U.S. government acknowledgment that there was a U.S. reconnaissance plane in the area, and in light of the fact that the crew of that plane knew the danger KAL 007 was increasingly confronting as it flew deeper to the shores of Soviet Kamchatka?

Now, we finally know. This article will bring it out for the first time.

The Background:

August 31/September 1, 1983 was the worst possible night for KAL 007 to “bump the buffer” for a complexity of reasons—all of them ominous. It was but a few short hours before the time that Marshal Ogarkov, Soviet Chief of General Staff, had set for the test firing of the SS-25, an illegal mobile Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM). The SS-25 was to be launched from Plesetsk, the launch site in northwest Russia which was used for test firing of solid fuel propellant ICBMs—24 minutes later to land in the Klyuchi target range on the Kamchatka Peninsula * **. Kamchatka, was also home to a nuclear submarine base, and a number of military airfields and military installations. KAL 007 was flying straight into a highly sensitive area bristling with weaponry!

Prior to his appointment as Marshal of the Soviet Union and Chief of the General Staff, General Ogarkov had been Chief of the Main Operation Directorate of the General Staff and, as such, had begun and had directed the Strategic Deception Department, or “Maskirovka,” which was charged with hiding Salt 2 violations from United States intelligence. On August 31/September 1, Soviet aerial “jammers”,under Maskirovka, were sent aloft to prevent United States intelligence eyes and ears from obtaining the illegal SS 25’s telemetry data.

And indeed, United States intelligence eyes and ears were wide open and unblinking that night—an RC-135 Boeing 707 reconnaissance plane was “lazy eighting” off the Kamchatka peninsula coast electronically “sucking in” emissions. Exactly which emissions the 707 was collecting depended on which of two versions of the RC-135—code-named “Rivet Joint” and “Cobra Ball,” respectively— happened to be deployed that night. Rivet Joint, based at Eielson Air Force Base south of Fairbanks, Alaska, was furnished with cameras, SLAR (side-looking radar) and an array of advanced electronic equipment designed to eavesdrop on in-the-air and on-the ground conversations, locate and decipher radar signals, “spoofing”17 (i.e. simulating electronically and otherwise near intrusions of the border thus turning on Soviet radar stations), and tripping and recording the enemy’s “order of battle.” Cobra Ball, based on Shemya Island on the tip of the Aleutian Island chain, similarly equipped as the Rivet Joint 707 but with much more apparatus, stayed far from the borders of the Kamchatka peninsula waiting for the precise moment of an Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles reentry in order to capture the missile’s telemetry signals.

Rivet Joint and Cobra Ball were both under the command of the Air Force’s Strategic Air Command (SAC), but the personnel operating the electronic equipment were signal intelligence specialists of the Electronic Security Command (ESC) under the authority of the National Security Agency (NSA). The NSA was charged with the responsibility of gathering and deciphering “raw” intelligence data. This raw data was collected from super sensitive apparatus aboard aerial platforms such as the RC-135, as well as from land collection stations such as that on Wakkanai on the northernmost Japanese Island of Hokkaido The raw intelligence data then underwent preliminary analysis at various collection platforms and stations, and then, in the Far East, were beamed 23 thousand miles up to a geosynchronous satellite (one whose orbit around the world was correlated with the rotation of the earth around its axis in such a way that it remained continually “motionless” over a designated portion of the earth). From this satellite, the raw data was beamed to the NSA facility at Pine Gap, Australia, and from there relayed to to other stations, including the key satellite/transmission station at Strategic Air Command (SAC) headquarters at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska, and then Fort Detrick and finally on to Fort Meade, Maryland. At Fort Meade, home of the National Security Agency, the data was further analyzed and then distributed to various intelligence services of the United States government.

The collection stations and platforms around the world operated in an on-spot evaluation of the critical nature of the raw material they collected and analyzed. An evaluation of highest priority was called a “Critic Report.”

Informant 1:

"A Critic is the highest intelligence report that intelligence agencies can issue. It is sent at Flash precedence, which literally overrides anything else on the net. A ground station cannot override a Critic. One of its criteria is that it has to come to the attention of the highest command authorities within ten minutes, preferably less. The president would have known about it almost immediately after NSA got the report. The aircraft commander would also have been notified of this. The RC-135 would have been diverted, within fuel limits, to get closer to the action. He could have sent out a Mayday on the emergency frequencies, 121.5 MHz and 243.00 MHz. If the RC-135 had been aware of it, ground stations all around the world would also have been aware of it, as well at the National Sigint Operations Center at NSA. The airliner would have been notified."

It is almost certain, then, that United States intelligence agencies, poised that night to receive all that the Soviets emitted, were in position to follow KAL 007’s incursion into the Soviet buffer zone 200 Kilometers off Kamchatka. In fact, they were charged to do so. The RC-135 would have seen Kamchatka’s radar positions “light up” one after another and would have heard the chatter at dozens of command posts. James Bamford, author of The Puzzle Palace and an expert on the operations of the United States National Security Agency explains: “The RC-135 is designed for one purpose—it’s designed for eavesdropping... There’s almost no way that the aircraft could not have picked up the indications of Soviet activity: Soviet fighters taking off, Soviet defense stations going into higher states of readiness, higher states of alert.”

Informant 2:

An RC-135 airman who flew back to Anchorage, Alaska, from Shemya Island with the RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft crew after they had returned to Shemya base from their surveillance at Kamchatka's borders tells what was told to him by the crew. The answer to the question is in the affirmative. They were aware of KAL 007, and they did know that it was entering harm's way. When they had returned to their base on Shemya, KAL 007 had already departed Kamchatka's airspace but had not yet entered Sakhalin's airspace where the attack would occur. There was still time enough! Here are the words of this airman- his statement, my questions, and his responses.
"Tonight I watched the History Channel special about KAL 007. One part that could not help but stick in my gut was the statement that the RC 135 may not have been aware of 007 because as the former Cobra Ball pilot said they were using downward looking radar. That may have been true, but that night I was waiting on the ground for that RC to land so I and the crew that was on board the aircraft mentioned on the special could fly back to Eielson AFB. I was friends at the time with a number of the aircrew members in the back of the aircraft who when questioned as to why they were so late and pale as sheets answered, "Watch CNN when you get back". These guys were specifically Russian linguists and analysts, so it was apparent they had knowledge of what had happened."

My request for clarifications -

1. Would it have been possible, or likely, that these people had tracked (radar, other means?) KAL 007 while the flight crew itself of the RC-135 not have been aware of 007's intrusion? This seems hardly likely to me but I wanted to get your take on this.

2. Did the linguists and analysts say anything about where 007 was when it was observed? Was it heading for Russian airspace? Was it ALREADY in Russian air space?

3. Was it on Shemya that you boarded the plane with the RC-135 crew for your flight back to Eielson AFB?...

The airman's response to my request -

1. The RC-135 platform listens to every comm coming out of an area. But it's all of the guys sitting in the back. The actual flight crew may not have known anything.

2. These guys only said, "Watch CNN when you get home". They have to be very tight-lipped about what goes on, but understood that we knew what their capability was in the air, so simply saying that shouted to me that they knew what happened.

3. Yes, I rode a training RC down to Shemya with the weekly replacement crew to complete some business. I had to wait quite a time for the crew on the mission to return, but when they did, they were as white as ghosts from what they had heard. I re-boarded the training RC with them to return to our home base of Eielson....

The Outage:

But the warning Critic Report about the danger KAL 007 would encounter may well have been sent. If so if would have to go through the AN/FSC/78 (V) satellite communications station at Strategic Air Command head quarters at Offutt Air Force Base near Omaha, Nebraska. But at almost the exact time ** that KAL 007 was entering the heavily survaillanced prohibited-to-civilian aircraft U.S. North American Aerospace Defense (NORAD) flying zone and on its way straight to Russian Kamchatka there was outage affecting the transmission unit which would have carried that Critic Report with its warning on to the desired destinations. We get the following information from an airman on the communications floor of the satellite communications station:

Informant 3:

"I immediately knew the problem had to be transmitter, receiver or antenna so the next place I went was to the transmitter room. Here you have to understand we had what they called hot switch over redundant transmitters. In other words if one went down it should have automatically swapped to the other...

"it had not happened and both transmitters were offline. I knew something had happened to the one that had been online so I brought up the other transmitter to get the link up. I needed to both see..the links were coming back up and notify the Defense Communications Agency controller at the Pentagon and my all distant end terminals what had happened before I started looking at the transmitter that had dropped...

"the phone rang on the main console...Up to this point everything was just like every other outage I had seen before or after. Compared to some it was a very short outage as well. When I answered the phone it was already the DCA controller on the line. I will not say getting a call from them rather than over the order wire was unheard of but I only other had it happen to me in my whole career was in ... So you can see this was a little unusual....

"We got everything back up and we went back to look at the transmitter ... To this day I do not know why it dropped or why it did not switch although had it happen there and at other places once in a blue moon also. Before we got through looking the transmitter over I got called to the floor again. It was from the Pentagon again and it was a colonel ...He basically ask me for all the information I had given the DCA controller which I responded to almost word for word. ...

"Anyway I told him we were in the act of troubleshooting to find out what had happened and if we found a problem we would do whatever was required to get it operational at that time. ...

"After checking all readings on the transmitter nothing was out of specs. ... We were less than ten minutes down at the time but I can't remember how much. We have had two calls from the Pentagon already....

"..there is no telling how many links after the transmit and receive terminals so the time to link back up from one distance end to the other could have easily doubled or even tripled the outage time...

"We got the transmitter up and as I said never found out what happened. There was another call from the colonel who I had to tell we had no RFO (reason for outage) but would continue to monitor the transmitter closely and no reason for the lack of a hot swap. He did not sound happy but there was nothing else I could give him... The DCA controller also called back rather than asking on the order-wire [the usual way of communication. Editor]. I gave him my final report on the whole situation and finally asked if he wanted me to swap back to the original transmitter since we were supposed to be on that one. He said absolutely not. That more than anything else makes me think something was going on and whatever it was was important."

What was the reason for the outage? The airman informant at first could not say except wondered if there was a possibility of sabotage - only a possibility. But another military informant who had intimate knowledge of this event and of this particular installation had another assessment. His was that sabotage was more than a possibility. It was a probability. But after time, reflection and realization, both came to another conclusions - the outage could only have come about by sabotage and that from the inside!

Our informant 3. again:

"If the RC 135 had transmitted a Critic Report, even with the outage at the satellite communication terminal there should have been a query to the RC 135 to re-transmit the report and even a backup system to the satellite terminal going down. Unfortunately more things likely went wrong that day. It has been almost thirty-four years. It is time for the United States government to say what it knows. Barring that, there are individuals out there who do know what happened. You may have been military service or civilian personnel fighting the cold war with the U.S.S.R. in the area this occurred or in Alaska at the time. You may have been at S.A.C. headquarters at Offutt, AFB in Nebraska. You may have been at the Pentagon in at the Defense Communications Agency (now the Defense Information Systems Agency) or some other agency. You may have been at NSA at Ft. Mead, Maryland. You may know where information that was kept by these agencies that may pertain to this event may have been stored. You had a reason to keep quiet when you did. Fortunately the war you were fighting is long over. No one on either side of that war woke up that morning and said to themselves “I am going to kill a plane load of civilians today.” Instead it appears to have been a perfect storm of aggression, errors, mistakes equipment failures, and maybe more. If you know something or even suspect you might know something to add to this narrative please do as other sources have done and contact someone who is capable of informing those involved in the ongoing investigation of this matter. Your identify can be protected. No information is too small or unimportant."

If the RC 135 had transmitted a Critic Report, and if there had been no outage at the satellite communication terminal, KAL 007 would have had plenty of time to have been warned and escaped the following about 2 -2 1/2 hours later:

17:53 - First documented order for shootdown

General Anatoli Kornukov, commander of Sokol Air base on Sakhalin to the command post of General Valeri Kamenski, Commander of Air Defense Forces for the Soviet Far East Military District : "...simply destroy [it] even if it is over neutral waters? Are the orders to destroy it over neutral waters? Oh, well."

(for the complete real time transcripts of the shoot down of KAL 007, read here http://www.conservapedia.com/KAL_007:_S ... ranscripts

Notes:

* The SS-25 was in violation of the SALT II agreements on three counts: 1. It was a new kind of ICBM (the first mobile one ever launched). 2. Its telemetry was encoded and encrypted. When a test ICBM reentry vehicle approaches the target, it emits vital data relating to its velocity, trajectory, throw-weight, and accuracy by means of coded (symbolized) and encrypted (scrambled) electronic bursts, which are then decoded and decrypted by Soviet on-ground intelligence gathering stations. 3. The missile as a whole was too large for its reentry vehicle (dummy warhead), raising suspicion that the missile was being developed for new and more advanced warheads than allowable.

** Informant: "I am 100% sure the outage was no earlier than 9 am and more likely after 10am. I am 100% sure we were completely through with all paperwork by 11:15 AM"

My response: "The time fits in perfectly. You say that the outage began no earlier that 9 am and more likely after 10 am. That was the time at your satellite terminal in Nebraska. Well, KAL 007 entered the Soviet buffer zone (which is 200 kilometers from the coast of Kamchatka) at 15:51 GMT = 3:51 PM. 3:51 PM would be 10:51 AM in Nebraska (5 hour difference). This fits in with Your understanding that the outage began "more likely after 10 am" [It also means, since "all paper work ..through by 11:15 AM" that if the RC-135 had sent the Critic Report warning message, it must have been shortly after KAL 007 was seen to have crossed over into the prohibited Soviet buffer zone.B.S[/img][/img].]
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:33 am

Continued on Aviation Safety Discussion Forum
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:12 pm

This is a video I made based on the real time transcripts of the stalking, the shoot down, and the Soviet rescue missions to Moneron Island

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CHgzbr ... e=youtu.be
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

User avatar
monchavo
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:21 am

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby monchavo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:40 pm

Bert, seven or so years ago I recall you were of the opinion that the plane had landed (or at least crashed with survivors) and that those survivors were likely still alive and had been brainwashed. Are you still of this opinion. If so, please tell us why.
Thanks

User avatar
monchavo
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:21 am

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby monchavo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:40 pm

This is a video I made based on the real time transcripts of the stalking, the shoot down, and the Soviet rescue missions to Moneron Island

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CHgzbr ... e=youtu.be
Essential viewing. I will give it a look this evening.

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:22 pm

Yes, I do.

Soviet transcripts relayed by Russian Federation:
1. of 007 not exploding at missile detonation, as originally believed, but flying at 5,000 meters over 12 minutes until over Moneron Island and then slow spiral descent around Moneron - 3 1/2 by 4 1/2 miles
2. at least two Soviet missions to Moneron within 1/2 hour of 007 reaching 1,000 feet above surface of sea
3.Testimony of Soviet seaman that his ship and others a full speed ahead to site of "anticipated" set down/impact site. That is, soviet presence at site shortly after downing.

After Action Report of Walter Piate, commander of 71 Task of 7th fleet that Soviets prevented his ships from Soviet claimed waters where he believed with over 95% certainty that KAL 007 was to be found.

Soviet divers testimony after fall of Soviet Union that they had found neither bodies or luggage when they were finally ordered down after Military divers did their job. And this only 2 weeks after downing.

Monchevo, there is really more but this if for starters. These are only assertions, but I have all the references in transcripts and other testimony

Reports of whereabouts of passenger Congressman Larry McDonald unil 1995 then tracking lost.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:24 pm

Yes, I do.

Soviet transcripts relayed by Russian Federation:
1. of 007 not exploding at missile detonation, as originally believed, but flying at 5,000 meters over 12 minutes until over Moneron Island and then slow spiral descent around Moneron - 3 1/2 by 4 1/2 miles
2. at least two Soviet missions to Moneron within 1/2 hour of 007 reaching 1,000 feet above surface of sea
3.Testimony of Soviet seaman that his ship and others a full speed ahead to site of "anticipated" set down/impact site. That is, soviet presence at site shortly after downing.

After Action Report of Walter Piate, commander of 71 Task of 7th fleet that Soviets prevented his ships from Soviet claimed waters where he believed with over 95% certainty that KAL 007 was to be found.

Soviet divers testimony after fall of Soviet Union that they had found neither bodies or luggage when they were finally ordered down after Military divers did their job. And this only 2 weeks after downing.

Monchevo, there is really more but this if for starters. These are only assertions, but I have all the references in transcripts and other testimony

Reports of whereabouts of passenger Congressman Larry McDonald unil 1995 then tracking lost.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 3924
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:40 pm

These are only assertions, but I have all the references in transcripts and other testimony...
The fact that after decades of "investigating" all you have are "assertions" is not without significance (at least, in my opinion). As someone who has read (and liked) your book, I don't question your motives, but your methods seem to slowly slide towards yellow journalism rather than real research. The latest episode with unidentified "informants" (and the fact that you refused to answer my questions about them) really rubbed me the wrong way.

I presume, you still haven't visited Moneron (or at least Sakhalin)...
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:22 pm

I'm sorry about not revealing names of informants. there is nothing I can do about it. I've given my word.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 3924
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:38 pm

I'm sorry about not revealing names of informants. there is nothing I can do about it. I've given my word.
Then why mention them at all?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:11 pm

Because what they say is important and true.
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 3924
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:29 pm

Because what they say is important and true.
Says you...
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:02 pm

Flyboy (and others, of course) I'm glad you liked my first book. That one was more of research project. I am writing a second book on KAL 007. It does incorporate new material, but the main thrust is to make it readable. I am trying to make the protagonists real as I know them to be, expressing their feelings and even thoughts found elsewhere - interviews, parts of articles where they are quoted, etc. Here is part of the draft first chapter. I am looking for your evaluation and comments - the favorable and the unfavorable (I can take it!)

Chapter 1. The Bad Days of General Valerie Kaminsky 


That morning was the start of a dread that drilled deep within him. It seemed that the dread had never left him all these years, reasserting itself, as a twisting snake ready to strike again and again. 

It had come upon him first on Sept. 1. 1983 and now, this day, Oct. 4, 2001, it had coiled to strike again. Unbelievably, once again, after he averred in print just 7 months previous, in his own Ukrainian tongue, that it would never happen again. Never again would an erring passenger plane be brought down as had Korean Airlines Flight 007 been brought down, and now, on this day, and on his watch as Chief of Staff and Commander of Ukrainian Air Defenses, his men had downed an innocent  passenger jet over the Black Sea, killing Russian born Jewish new immigrants to Israel who were returning to see family in Novosibirsk. It had happened quickly and unpredictably. During the Russian  and Ukrainian joint military exercise over the Black Sea, his men had launched a S-200 missile at the target drone and overshooting it, the missile failed to self detonate, as it should have done.  Instead, the S-200 locked onto a passenger jet 160 miles ahead - onto Siberia Airlines Flight 1812, a Tupolev 154, and exploded it over the Black Sea, with the loss of all 78 people. 

It was eighteen years earlier, on September 1, 1983, that was the beginning of his dread, He, General Valeri Kaminsky, Commander of the Soviet Union's Far East Military District's Air Defense Forces, had been alerted by telephone calls from one of his subordinates, General  Anatoli Kornukov, Commander of Sokol Air Base on Sakhalin Island. An unidentified "Intruder" had flown across the Sea of Okhotzk and was already entering Sakhalin's air space through Terpenie Bay;

Kornukov: (6:14) 
"Comrade General, Kornukov, good morning. I am reporting the situation. Target 60- 65 (KAL 007 "intruder") is over Terpenie Bay  tracking 240, 30 km from the State border, the fighter from Sokol is 6 km away.  Locked on, orders were given to arm weapons.  The target is not responding, to identify, he cannot identify it visually because it is still dark, but he is still locked on."

It was bad. This was the second call about the intruding aircraft. On the first call, he had decided for a kill even if the plane was over neutral waters. Kornukov seemed to accept this decision - reluctantly:

General Kornukov (to Military District Headquarters-Gen. Kamenski): (5:47) 
...simply destroy [it] even if it is over neutral waters? Are the orders to destroy it over neutral waters? Oh, well.  

But now he, the superior officer had decided for a wait until positive identification be made that this plane was not some straying civilian jet. 
But now Kornukov opposes:

Kornukov: 
What civilian? [It] has flown over Kamchatka! It [came] from the ocean without identification. I am giving the order to attack if it crosses the State border. 

But more unsettling than a subordinate on the verge of insubordination was the memory of what had happened just five years previous,1978, and what had happened to the Soviet officers who let it happen! Korean Air Lines Flight 902 had penetrated the Soviet Union over the Kola Peninsula and had been shot down making a forced landing on ice near Murmansk. It was rumored that more than one of the negligent lieutenant colonels involved in this incident were executed!

That morning of the shoot down, though, the General was troubled by something more than the insubordination and something more than the threatening Sword of Damocles hanging by a thread over the head of the poor jerk who makes the wrong decision or worse, makes no decision at all. It was something else that he could only term "omen" and had named it that in that Ukrainian language interview of 7 months previous reference in foot notes. He had uttered it feeling its terror but even sensing that it was a prediction about to come true. it would name the people, name the origin of the plane he was about to order to be destroyed:

"I thought, 'Well that is the end. I can’t get away with it now no matter whatever it might end with.' It was shortly past 4 a.m. When I was preparing to get into the car I heard somebody calling my name. It was the Commander of the Air Defense division who decided to go along with me. Once we were in the car a tall Korean-looking man appeared at the door. I would wonder where did he come from at this early hour. The man explained that he was a driver carrying in his car the newly recruited solders to an exercise ground. He lost his way and asked if we could be of assistance. Later I would often recall this as a strange omen of what had yet to happen..meeting a Korean-looking driver on the morning of accident was actually a bad sign." (reference Ukrainian in foot note~ article dated March 15, 2001, in the Ukrainian weekly, “Facti I Kommentari” )


It wasn't that he was impudent. General Anatoly Kornukov was determined. He was convinced that whatever it was that was about to come over Sakhalin Island through Terpenie Bay could only have been the Enemy. It had overflown Kamchatka brazenly, over its military airfields, over the nuclear submarine base off of Petropavlosk itself. If he knew what Marshal Nikolai Ogarkov, U.S.S.R. Chief of General Staff had planned for the very night KAL 007 would traverse the Peninsula from north-east to its south-west, if he knew what the Americans knew and why they had sent up a RC-135 reconnaissance Cobra Ball to "lazy eight" off  Kamchatka's coast on the ready to capture the telemetry of a prohibited-by-Salt II Agreement-Soviet missile as it crashed down on Kamchatka's Klyuchi target range, he would be more than determined. He would be livid! 

What he didn't know -this was very the night the Soviets were to launch the prototype of all mobile missiles, the father of the Scuds that Saddam Hussein was to rain down on Israel and Pakistan send over India, the SS-25. The SS-25 was to be launched from Plesetsk, the launch site in northwest Russia which was used for test firing of solid fuel propellant ICBMs—24 minutes later to land in the Klyuchi target area on the Kamchatka Peninsula. Home to the Soviet Far East Fleet Inter -Continental Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine base, as well as several air bases and Air Defense Missile launching batteries, Petropavlovsk on the southern coast of Kamchatka was bristling with weaponry.

This was the worst of all night for KAL 007 to stray into harm's way over Kamchatka!

(- to be foot noted- ) The SS-25 was in violation of the SALT II agreements on three counts:
1. It was a new kind of ICBM (the first mobile one ever launched).
2. Its telemetry was encoded and encrypted. When a test ICBM reentry vehicle approaches the target, it emits vital data relating to its velocity, trajectory, throw-weight, and accuracy by means of coded (symbolized) and encrypted (scrambled) electronic bursts, which are then decoded and decrypted by Soviet on-ground intelligence gathering stations.
3. The missile as a whole was too large for its reentry vehicle (dummy warhead), raising suspicion that the missile was being developed for new and more advanced warheads than allowable.
to continue in body

(back to main body)
As it was General Kornukov didn't know all of this. Neither did General Kaminsky. It was further up the ladder that it was known and it was further up the ladder that the shoot down was to be finally rubber stamped. But General Kornukov was determined and resolute as he directed from his base at Sokol Air Base on Sakhalin Island both his combat controller, Lt. Col. Titovin, and the Su 15 interceptor pilot, Maj. Gennadie Osipovich for the stalk and kill of KAL 007 now, after having crossed Kamchatka, flying over the international water of the Sea of Okhotsk, and now about to enter Terpenie Bay. 
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 3924
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:41 am

Well, at least now you're officially writing fiction, so...
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:40 am

In answer to the question do I still believe in the survival of the passengers and crew of KAL 007, I think it still telling that within minutes of the attack, there are two documented Soviet mission orders to the place that Soviet radar tracked KAL 007 in a slow spiral descent over 3/12 mile long by 3 1/2 mile wide Moneron Island and Interview of Soviet naval specialist sent to area that his ship and others were racing to the spot where they "anticipated" that KAL 007 would come down - that is, they were already on the way while KAL 007 was still in the air! Here is the evidence - http://www.rescue007.org/rescue.htm
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

User avatar
Gabriel
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:55 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Gabriel » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:59 pm

In answer to the question do I still believe in the survival of the passengers and crew of KAL 007, I think it still telling that within minutes of the attack, there are two documented Soviet mission orders to the place that Soviet radar tracked KAL 007 in a slow spiral descent over 3/12 mile long by 3 1/2 mile wide Moneron Island and Interview of Soviet naval specialist sent to area that his ship and others were racing to the spot where they "anticipated" that KAL 007 would come down - that is, they were already on the way while KAL 007 was still in the air! Here is the evidence - http://www.rescue007.org/rescue.htm
I fail to see how any of that indicates survival of passengers.. Sully landed an A320, which other than having the engines failed was perfectly functional and controllable, in daylight, assisted by a flight control computer, in billiard-smooth waters, and with rescue reaching them in single-digit minutes. The prospect of a missile-stricken 747 landing in open seas at nighttime with help much farther away is totally different. Impossible? No. But do you have any somehow solid reason to believe there were survivors other than that it is not totally impossible?

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:03 pm

Gabriel, I will get back to you, in a couple of days I think. But here let me comment on your descriptions -

1. Most commentators point out that the time was "pre-dawn", than fully dark of night. Pre dawn is prior to sunrise but light is beginning to filter through

2. Here is the only description of the water, admittedly, not in the Moneron area itself but close to it on the day before the shoot down, by a knowledgeable person. From this description we should not assume rough waters, and they may have been as smooth, and "as flat as glass" as the Hudson at the time of Capt. Sully's landing.

"Mr. Schlossberg, I have visited Wakkanai, Rebun and Rishiri in northern Hokkaido and I believe it is possible to see, on a clear day, Moneron or its immediate vicinity, from both Wakkanai and Rebun. But just barely because of the distance involved and the curvature of the earth. It is certainly possible to see Sakhalin from Wakkanai and Rebun (I did). Also, a fairly robust-looking radar station is resting on top of a hill overlooking Wakkanai city. They appear to be telemetry trackers, but I'm not certain. The view to the north from there should be excellent, but I myself did not get up that high on my trip. Ironically, now that I think about it, my trip occurred 30-31 AUG. I did note that the weather was clear with very little wind and the waters around our ferry boat were flat as glass."
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 3924
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:49 pm

Here is the evidence - http://www.rescue007.org/rescue.htm
That's not evidence, Bert. That's your interpretation of a conversation, a translated conversation to boot.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:17 pm

Flyboy, they are translations from the original Russian, but these are the official translations made by the U.N.'s ICAO and appended in the Information Papers of their 1993 report. Why do you doubt their veracity? And how does your interpretation differ from mine?
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

User avatar
flyboy2548m
Posts: 3924
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Ormond Beach, FL

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:03 pm

Flyboy, they are translations from the original Russian, but these are the official translations made by the U.N.'s ICAO and appended in the Information Papers of their 1993 report. Why do you doubt their veracity?
Oh Bert...
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.

Bert Schlossberg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:08 am
Location: Niceville, Florida, U.S.A
Contact:

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Bert Schlossberg » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:09 am

Off topic but I think that you will all enjoy this

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Sj-QGdsoelE?ecver=1 :o
Then Nebuchadnezer, the King, arose amazed and frightened and said..."Didn't we throw three men into the burning fire, bound?...But I see four, unbound, and walking around, unharmed. And the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24,25

User avatar
Not_Karl
Posts: 2459
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:12 pm
Location: Buenos Aires

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Not_Karl » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:38 pm

Off topic but I think that you will all enjoy this

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Sj-QGdsoelE?ecver=1 :o
Indeed, thanks! :D :clap:
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

User avatar
3WE
Posts: 4836
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:37 pm
Location: Flyover, America

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby 3WE » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:28 pm

Off topic but I think that you will all enjoy this

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Sj-QGdsoelE?ecver=1 :o
I see aerobatic maneuvers over populated area.

Violation of rules and procedures for some parts of the world...Cowboy Improvisation!
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

User avatar
Gabriel
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:55 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby Gabriel » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:31 pm

Off topic but I think that you will all enjoy this

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Sj-QGdsoelE?ecver=1 :o
I see beauty
Fixed.

elaw
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:01 pm
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: The Shoot Down of KAL 007

Postby elaw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:51 pm

Off topic but I think that you will all enjoy this

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Sj-QGdsoelE?ecver=1 :o
:clap:

Am I to understand that some people spend their time watching cat videos instead of things like this? What is wrong with those people? :lol:
HR consultant, Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc.


Return to “Aviation Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest