A380 troubles, the latest news...

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Verbal
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:45 am

no
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Ancient Mariner » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:45 am

Verbal wrote:I am led to understand that Hilditch accepts Lunch Aid.

Here's how Lunch Aid works. You invite someone to lunch and offer to pay for their food, with the following stipulations. They have to pay you back only if they finish the entire meal. If they can not finish the meal, or if it does not live up to expectations in some way, then they don't have to pay you back. You have to pay the cost of their lunch. See that? Simple.

No.
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Procede » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:23 am

Verbal wrote:I am led to understand that Hilditch accepts Lunch Aid.

Here's how Lunch Aid works. You invite someone to lunch and offer to pay for their food, with the following stipulations. They have to pay you back only if they finish the entire meal. If they can not finish the meal, or if it does not live up to expectations in some way, then they don't have to pay you back. You have to pay the cost of their lunch. See that? Simple.


And this is different from any other investment in what way?

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby David Hilditch » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:28 am

Verbal wrote:DHWNPITT.


Well, I've already posted in this thread, so please keep up.

As to the issue here, let's all grow up. We've discussed this ad nauseam here and on multiple forums. Those without an ax to grind know perfectly well that the US and the EU (not to mention the Brazilians, the Canadians and the Russians) assist and subsize their aviation industries in various different direct and indirect ways. Aviation is a high profile business with important economic, political and cultural reach in most countries with a stake, so it's not surprising that this happens. Next ?

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Ancient Mariner » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:00 pm

David Hilditch wrote:
Verbal wrote:DHWNPITT.


Well, I've already posted in this thread, so please keep up.

As to the issue here, let's all grow up. We've discussed this ad nauseam here and on multiple forums. Those without an ax to grind know perfectly well that the US and the EU (not to mention the Brazilians, the Canadians and the Russians) assist and subsize their aviation industries in various different direct and indirect ways. Aviation is a high profile business with important economic, political and cultural reach in most countries with a stake, so it's not surprising that this happens. Next ?


Verbal, see?
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:03 pm

David Hilditch wrote:
Verbal wrote:DHWNPITT.


Well, I've already posted in this thread, so please keep up.


DHWPITT.
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:05 pm

David Hilditch wrote:As to the issue here, let's all grow up. We've discussed this ad nauseam here and on multiple forums. Those without an ax to grind know perfectly well that the US and the EU (not to mention the Brazilians, the Canadians and the Russians) assist and subsize their aviation industries in various different direct and indirect ways. Aviation is a high profile business with important economic, political and cultural reach in most countries with a stake, so it's not surprising that this happens. Next ?

I don't think the correctness of governments assisting their industries is the question here. The question is whether it is done legally and applied fairly.
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Ancient Mariner » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:26 pm

Verbal wrote:
David Hilditch wrote:
Verbal wrote:DHWNPITT.


Well, I've already posted in this thread, so please keep up.


DHWPITT.

DHHPITT
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Ancient Mariner » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:28 pm

Verbal wrote:
David Hilditch wrote:As to the issue here, let's all grow up. We've discussed this ad nauseam here and on multiple forums. Those without an ax to grind know perfectly well that the US and the EU (not to mention the Brazilians, the Canadians and the Russians) assist and subsize their aviation industries in various different direct and indirect ways. Aviation is a high profile business with important economic, political and cultural reach in most countries with a stake, so it's not surprising that this happens. Next ?

I don't think the correctness of governments assisting their industries is the question here. The question is whether it is done legally and applied fairly.


Now that was funny! :lol:
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Procede » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:52 pm

Verbal wrote:I don't think the correctness of governments assisting their industries is the question here. The question is whether it is done legally and applied fairly.


If the president does it then that makes it legal...

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:18 pm

Procede wrote:If the president does it then that makes it legal...

Are you Richard Nixon?
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby David Hilditch » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:49 am

Verbal wrote:I don't think the correctness of governments assisting their industries is the question here. The question is whether it is done legally and applied fairly.


Well, loyalty to one's employer is an admirable quality, but it separates one from neutrality, objectivity and sound judgment.

Legal : As far as I know, the World Trade Organization is not a court and has no ability to enforce its judgments or to impose any punishments. It's a talking shop.

Fair : What is fair ? Depends on whom you ask, or whom you work for. Let's just agree that everyone who makes aircraft is at it in one way or another. There's no question that European governments have shoveled money at Airbus/EADS (although they do get some of it back in the event of commercial success). I could list half a dozen current or historic "subsidy" practices carried out by the US Government and/or American manufacturers to which Airbus/EADS would object as "not fair". This is like a pre-school playground : "It's not fair, he did it, no, she did it, it's my bike, no, it's my bike". So be it. We're all doing it.

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:57 am

David Hilditch wrote:Well, I've already posted in this thread, so please keep up.



Or what, you'll leave never to post again? Don't be such a tease.
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Hazmat » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:12 pm

20 New A380 this year goin to 3 frames/month, biggest production woes seem to be tackled.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/07/05/343877/a380-production-revamps-drives-down-out-of-sequence.html
Airbus is confident that it has put the A380's production woes behind it after the latest initiatives have seen a significant improvement in the completion state of subassemblies when they reach the assembly line, which has dramatically reduced the out-of-sequence workload.

The airframer struggled to keep output of the superjumbo on track last year as production issues combined with the complication of having to manage several customer deferrals caused deliveries to fall well short of target.

In total, 10 A380s were delivered in 2009 - two fewer than 2008 - but Airbus is confident that deliveries will more than double this year as monthly output gradually rises from two to three aircraft over the next 18 months.

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:15 pm

David Hilditch wrote:Well, loyalty to one's employer is an admirable quality, but it separates one from neutrality, objectivity and sound judgment.

Loyalty. That is funny. That is very, very funny.

You need to pay closer attention.


David Hilditch wrote:Legal : As far as I know, the World Trade Organization is not a court and has no ability to enforce its judgments or to impose any punishments. It's a talking shop.

If you are one of the 153 signatory nations to the WTO, then it is more than a talking shop.


David Hilditch wrote:I could list half a dozen current or historic "subsidy" practices carried out by the US Government and/or American manufacturers to which Airbus/EADS would object as "not fair".

Such as? We're waiting.... (And ribald tales of Boeing accepting truck loads of U.S. gummint cash earmarked for military development programs and taking them over to the commercial side of the company for executives to spend on liquor and fat women don't count.)

Also, the WTO is in fact currently considering an Airbus complaint against Boeing, so we'll see.

Note: if one can not recognize the distinction between between "incentives" and "subsidies", then there probably is no point in having this conversation. Incentives are as old as the hills and are widely implemented, so that makes them okay, right? Right?

The question of fairness comes down to who is eligible to receive the incentives or subsidies.

In 2004 the State of Washington enacted a number of tax and other incentives to promote the aerospace industry. Sure, Boeing is the biggest player there, and the motive was to keep the 787 final assembly in Washington. But the incentives apply to anyone in aerospace. So if Airbus had the foresight to build a plant in Washington instead of Alabama, they could have taken advantage of those incentives. Hell, they could have even bought up the half of the Renton plant which Boeing sold to commercial developers, and put up their own factory right in Boeing's back yard, and hired all the experienced aerospace workers that Boeing laid off post-9/11. But they didn't.

The point here being that the incentives are available to anyone who cares to take advantage of them. You could move to Walla Walla and set up DH Sententious Aerospace Industries Inc. from your garage and get tax breaks from the State of Washington.

What do you suppose would have happened if Boeing asked the European governments for launch aid on the 787? Not a far-fetched question, given the number of European-based partner/suppliers on that program (Latecoere, Labinal, Messier-Dowty, etc.).

While you ponder this, it may be instructive to note that those who work in the aerospace industry have an intimate knowledge of how this whole quagmire somehow moves forward, compared to those who observe the aerospace industry. Just sayin'. :)
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby 666 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:57 pm

Verbal wrote:In 2004 the State of Washington enacted a number of tax and other incentives to promote the aerospace industry. Sure, Boeing is the biggest player there...


...which is the reason why those incentives were enacted.

Verbal wrote:So if Airbus had the foresight to build a plant in Washington instead of Alabama, they could have taken advantage of those incentives.


If Airbus had the foresight to build a plant in Washington then those incentives wouldn't exist. There would have been different incentives, carefully designed to funnel the money to Boeing and to keep it away from Airbus.
Last edited by 666 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:59 pm

666 wrote:If Airbus had the foresight to build a plant in Washington then those incentives wouldn't exist. There would have been different incentives, carefully designed to funnel the money to Boeing and to keep it away from Airbus.

The Netherlands have no chance against either Germany or Spain.
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby 666 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:02 pm

Maybe we win, maybe we won't. Either way, our team didn't fly to South Africa in a 380, so you're in the wrong thread.

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby 666 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:22 pm

Oh wait, our team did fly a 380 from CDG to eGoli. Too bad, now the spanish really have no chance of beating us. We didn't have a chance against the brazilians either...

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby David Hilditch » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:41 am

Verbal, re: your July 7 post.

Why is the loyalty point very funny ?

On the WTO/talking shop point, am I right that you think the mere involvement of 153 nations makes the WTO an effective influential outfit ?

As to the distinction between subsidies and incentives, OK. But don't tell me that incentives cannot be politicized or manipulated or nuanced to the degree that the difference is whatever you want it to be. My point all along here is not specially to defend Airbus. I just prefer to recognize that they’re all at it, and we should recognize that. I don't think Boeing or its spokesmen can be expected to be impartial. Boeing and other components of the US military and civilian aviation industry have been and are vast beneficiaries of various types of direct and indirect government assistance. And that’s fine, due to reasons of national security or national interest, or just political cravenness.

Boeing and Airbus would be better advised just to get on with the job of building world-class airplanes while they can still do so, or they will lose the plot to the Brazilians, Canadians, Chinese and Russians by 2030.

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:07 pm

David Hilditch wrote:Boeing and Airbus would be better advised just to get on with the job of building world-class airplanes while they can still do so, or they will lose the plot to the Brazilians, Canadians, Chinese and Russians by 2030.

Considering that we are teaching all the above how to be our future competitors, you are correct.
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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby J » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:52 pm


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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby PurduePilot » Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:56 am


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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby Hazmat » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:08 pm

Just to annoy the anti Airbus crowd on this board, here's some happy news.
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/ldp ... 6990976/2/
Dr Karsten Benz, Lufthansa vice president sales and services Europe, said: “This is a very reliable aircraft that fulfils all our expectations and passengers are very happy.”

He said the A380 had already made such an impression that passengers were timing their journeys to coincide with its schedule.

“We have waiting lists for passengers who want to travel to Japan and now the bigger A380 gives us the opportunity to fly them there.

“This does not operate every day on the Tokyo route, but there are so many customers asking when the plane operates: ‘Is it the time I want, or the other way round, and if so I will change my timings’.”

Dr Benz explained that the routes flown by the A380 have been carefully selected.

“Tokyo is one of the strongest first- class markets in the world. Jo’burg is very strong for business and for economy in our winter period. Beijing, Tokyo and Jo’burg are the cream of destinations our network planners could make.”

He also revealed that the first A380 had entered service without the slightest problem: “Technically, it is operating at 100% – no problems in two months of operations.”

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Re: A380 troubles, the latest news...

Postby J » Fri May 13, 2011 5:45 pm

Video of Lightning Strike on Emirates A380. Typical media - they show the same strike over and over.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/travel/news/video-shows-lightning-strike-a380-jet/story-e6frg8ro-1226055405918


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