Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

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I’m comfortable

Yes
6
86%
No
1
14%
 
Total votes: 7

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3WE
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Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby 3WE » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:50 am

Well, they work bad because they haul people into the sky and then burst into flames, but aside from that?
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby Not_Karl » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:43 pm

no
Wings have caused enough accidents already and should be banned ASAP.

(I suspect that this is something related to there?)
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby Gabriel » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:16 pm

The question should be "Are we comfortable of our understanding on how wings work?" or simply "Do we know how wings work?"

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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby 3WE » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:06 pm

Look, Gabieee,

Much like Evanie, I have read much of Bernoulli and Venturi and must confess, I’m not sure I get it.

Conversely, I like Wolfgangieee’s and your explanations and feel no need to argue, except to pester you and I don’t like the loss of lift NOR spins that are often associated with stalls.
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F.A.O.: Blubie

Postby 3WE » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:43 pm

How does a wing produce lift?

As I listened to this, I thought it was so cool that I should double post it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld6fAO4idaI

FAO: Blubie- We miss you.
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby 3WE » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:40 pm

Here's a wind tunnel video.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/viral/st ... ocid=ientp

No big change to aerodynamic theory- just moderately interesting- and is a fun jab at the need for the super critical curved airfoil requirement vs. the barn door.

Seems like it might have been good to have an MCAS system here.

[Repost of Peter, Paul and Mary]
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Gabriel
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby Gabriel » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:12 pm

Here's a wind tunnel video.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/viral/st ... ocid=ientp

No big change to aerodynamic theory- just moderately interesting- and is a fun jab at the need for the super critical curved airfoil requirement vs. the barn door.

Seems like it might have been good to have an MCAS system here.

[Repost of Peter, Paul and Mary]
For this instance, this may be more appropriate than Peter, Paul and Mary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH2w6Oxx0kQ

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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby 3WE » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:42 am

Agricultural comment:

The statements below are not absolute...but largely true? with respect to wings:

The air on the underside of the wing has no choice BUT to be shoved down...a flat surface will suffice.

The air on top is “free” to not_follow the wing...but the curved surface does a better job prepping it and coercing it downward than a flat surface especially at higher AOAs.

Bernoulli who?
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby elaw » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:18 am

Would now be a good time to bring up the subject of an aircraft that is flying inverted? :twisted:
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby 3WE » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:49 pm

Would now be a good time to bring up the subject of an aircraft that is flying inverted? :twisted:
Eric:

This is an advanced forum.

We know:

1. Barn doors can generate great lift.
2. Aerobatic aircraft may have more symmetrical wing profiles to support “negative/inverted” lift.

However, it was established there that there is much misinformation about the curved upper surface of a typical wing and it’s “extra” contribution to lift.

But a typical wing can produce plenty of “negative/inverted” lift if the “elevators allow” it...

:-)
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:26 pm


Eric:

This is an advanced forum.

We know:

1. Barn doors can generate great lift.
2. Aerobatic aircraft may have more symmetrical wing profiles to support “negative/inverted” lift.

However, it was established there that there is much misinformation about the curved upper surface of a typical wing and it’s “extra” contribution to lift.

But a typical wing can produce plenty of “negative/inverted” lift if the “elevators allow” it...

:-)
As I smugly remarked in another thread....
A flattish surface moving through a fluid with an AOA is all you need to generate lift.
All the other features are just there in order to improve the lift to drag ratio. :?
Though I will concede that I should have said "most of the other features".
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby Gabriel » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:14 pm

A flattish surface moving through a fluid with an AOA is all you need to generate lift.
All the other features are just there in order to improve the lift to drag ratio AND a higher max lift AND a more-benign trailing-edge-type stall characteristic AND provide volume for structure, mechanisms and fuel. :?
Fixed.

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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:24 pm

A flattish surface moving through a fluid with an AOA is all you need to generate lift.
All the other features are just there in order to improve the lift to drag ratio AND a higher max lift AND a more-benign trailing-edge-type stall characteristic AND provide volume for structure, mechanisms and fuel. :?
Fixed.
Thanks Gabriel, I think we have a simple functional definition of the wing in 3 lines of text :clap:
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby Not_Karl » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:43 pm

Would now be a good time to bring up the subject of an aircraft that is flying inverted? :twisted:
While I didn't readed the discussion there where all this is coming from, I have some serious questions that need to be answered by someeone who is Not_part of the conspiracy:
If an inverted plane stalls, is there an increase in lift instead of a reduction? And then it falls upwards?
Thanks in advance.
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby 3WE » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:20 pm

Rabieee and Gabeee:

Remember- according to many books, wingies are more curveyey on top and flattery on bottom because Bernoulli sucks on the top, producing much more lift on top...

You guys are pretty dismissive of the books and actual wing shapes...there’s something to that hump and my hand out the window confirms it. :-)
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby elaw » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:13 pm

Remember- according to many books, wingies are more curveyey on top and flattery on bottom because Bernoulli sucks on the top, producing much more lift on top...
Would now be a good time to mention things like hang-glider wings and windsurfer sails* that are curved on the bottom too? Because they're essentially a single surface... :twisted:

* Boat sails too, but a windsurfer sail is a better example IMHO because they're shaped much more like airplane wings.
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby 3WE » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:28 am

Remember- according to many books, wingies are more curveyey on top and flattery on bottom because Bernoulli sucks on the top, producing much more lift on top...
Would now be a good time to mention things like hang-glider wings and windsurfer sails* that are curved on the bottom too? Because they're essentially a single surface... :twisted:

* Boat sails too, but a windsurfer sail is a better example IMHO because they're shaped much more like airplane wings.
I also pay attention to ATL crew who mentioned a highly technical physics acronym (which I am sure Evan knew): PFM. I think it means Pneumatic Flow Modification.

That probably explains Rogallo wings and boat sails.
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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby Gabriel » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:55 am

And what about kites? They need to produce enough lift to balance not only their own weight but also the down pull force of the string, and many times they don't look at all like airplanes wings.

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[i]We[/i] are TOTALLY Not_comfortable with how wings "work".

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:17 am

Shipies with sails have been involved in too many Total Water Disasters. Aeroplanies with whings have been involved in too many Total Air Disasters. Coincidence? I don't think so.
PFM. I think it means Premiata Forneria Marconi.
Fixed.
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Re: [i]We[/i] are TOTALLY Not_comfortable with how wings "work".

Postby Gabriel » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:35 am

Shipies with sails have been involved in too many Total Water Disasters. Aeroplanies with whings have been involved in too many Total Air Disasters. Coincidence?
Nope, they have a common cause: humans.

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Re: [i]We[/i] are TOTALLY Not_comfortable with how wings "work".

Postby 3WE » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:03 am

Shipies with sails have been involved in too many Total Water Disasters. Aeroplanies with whings have been involved in too many Total Air Disasters. Coincidence?
Nope, they have a common cause: humans.
Are you Evan?

Ban all humans.
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Re: [i]We[/i] are TOTALLY Not_comfortable with how wings "work".

Postby Gabriel » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:33 am

Are you Evan?
No. I did not say "humans who don't follow the cold word of every procedure". That could be, but it could be very well humans who lack basic general understanding of what they are doing, or freaked out. It could be pilots that didn't seem to take notice of an accident that recently happened in the same type they are flying and didn't took the time to study what went wrong and how to avoid it in every detail. It can be humans running an airline that doesn't spend 2 hour with every single pilot in small groups of 4 or 5 to discuss what happened to the accident of the other airline, what is the vulnerability of the system, and how to address it. I am talking about humans that believed that a ship made of a material 7 times denser that water is unsinkable and acting as if it was (although that one did not have sails)
Ban all humans.
That would be very effective to avoid plane crashes, as much as banning all planes. As it is usually said, the plane would have not crashed if it had not taken off.

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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby ocelot » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:51 am

And what about kites? They need to produce enough lift to balance not only their own weight but also the down pull force of the string, and many times they don't look at all like airplanes wings.
Because they're tied down they don't really have to generate lift at all; just drag and an angle of attack less than 90 degrees will produce some upwards force.

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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby Gabriel » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:55 am

And what about kites? They need to produce enough lift to balance not only their own weight but also the down pull force of the string, and many times they don't look at all like airplanes wings.
Because they're tied down they don't really have to generate lift at all; just drag and an angle of attack less than 90 degrees will produce some upwards force.
That is of course... wrong. Unless you have the kite hanging from above. Let's see how the diagram of forces would look like in a kite held from the ground:

Say that you have the kite flying steady, so sum of forces must be equal to zero. The wind is coming horizontally. So you have the tension on the cable that points forward and down. The weight points straight down. The drag points straight back. Do you see any issue to make sum of forces equal to zero?

(Drag, by definition, is the component of the aerodynamic force that is parallel to the free stream. Lift, by definition, is the component of the aerodynamic force that is perpendicular to the free stream)

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Re: Are [i]we[/i] comfortable with how wings work?

Postby ocelot » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:14 pm

Ok, sure. And it works at high angles of attack when the airfoil is stalled why?


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