CAP

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KPryor
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CAP

Postby KPryor » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:42 pm

Today I learned you have to pay real cash money to volunteer with CAP. I had no idea they charged membership dues. The dues aren't even consistent around the country. You'd think a national quasi-governmental organization like that would charge the same for everyone if they were going to charge at all. In addition, your local CAP wing can also charge their own dues as well. On top of that, you also have to buy your own uniforms and related stuff. I can see where the idea of paying to volunteer your time might keep some good people away. At the same time, having the opportunity to buy their way into a cool uniform without making the real commitment to military service might attract some who mainly seek power/fame/etc.

So, do you think the CAP might have less silliness if people could just volunteer without paying dues, etc? I would be interested in volunteering for a search and rescue organization, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to put up with paying for the privilege to do so. I think you'd still get the same number of nut jobs, but perhaps more normal people not seeking a power trip might also volunteer and balance things out a bit.
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Re: CAP

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:03 pm


So, do you think the CAP might have less silliness if people could just volunteer without paying dues, etc? I would be interested in volunteering for a search and rescue organization, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to put up with paying for the privilege to do so. I think you'd still get the same number of nut jobs, but perhaps more normal people not seeking a power trip might also volunteer and balance things out a bit.
I doubt lack of fees would make much of a difference. The dues are pretty low (under $100 a year). A "normal person" who really wants to serve probably won't be stopped by that.
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3WE
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Re: CAP

Postby 3WE » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:08 pm

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a valid business operating amateur-flown 172's for important, government search, rescue and defense from scouting for Russian submarines in the Mississippi river.

I'm not sure there's a valid business operating 172s for much of anything but training (or maybe surveying electric lines).

The only way to stay afloat was pay-to-play and throw in the uniforms and the chance to be a pretend soldier and there you have it.

I agree that it's a little unusual to have varied membership fees, but the Government has been doing some cost controls. From the outside looking in at a few FBOs, it seems there's two ways to operate 172 rentals. 1) Pre 1980 172's with foggy windshields, cracked plastic seats, rough-running engines, a tad out of trim and an 80% chance that a couple instruments don't work. These rent for ~$60/hour. 2) Newer 172's that rent for $120/hour.

I'm guessing that CAP establishments struggle with exactly that- thus the variety of membership fees.

Let's go back to several years ago, ITS would speak of CAP Tomfoolery. A couple 70-year-old dudes flew a C-1X2 into a hillside at night near Las Vegas.

What important search, rescue and submarine spotting is done at night by 70YO dudes near Las Vegas? (By the way, as a 59 YO dude, I'm not real happy at how night vision declines with age).

Anyway- there's my weakly-substantiated ass-essment. I would LOVE it if Flyboy would chime in- he said a few things that hinted at knowledge of the CAP. EDIT: FLYBOY DID CHIME IN...BREIF, BUT NONETHELESS, IMPORTANT STUFF.
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Re: CAP

Postby KPryor » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:32 pm

I think CAP can/may be a good thing, but I know I've read many negative things. I have no first hand knowledge, just news and forum postings I've read. I am absolutely not putting them down by any means. I don't know enough to do that. Honestly, I love the idea of it if run correctly.
But from the postings I've read here and other places, it seems it is plagued by the same power trip people that other volunteer orgs I have been affiliated with had. I wondered if that, plus the fact you have to pay for the privilege to volunteer your time perhaps keeps some good people out. Maybe not, I don't know.
Admittedly, I am a tightwad. I don't spend a ton of money on things and I would be hard pressed to pay for the privilege of volunteering my time and also getting to also pay even more for my uniform.
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Re: CAP

Postby 3WE » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:42 pm

***postings I've read here and other places***
Dittos that I really don't know anything about the CAP and I am only taking out my rear. I can't say I've ever seen a CAP aircraft at any local GA airport nor am I aware of local CAP organizations.

This topic has me mildly curious- can you share links to "other places" (with a minimal effort). (Or you can tell me "Quit being lazy, Google is your friend") :lol:
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KPryor
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Re: CAP

Postby KPryor » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:16 pm

***postings I've read here and other places***
<[snip>
This topic has me mildly curious- can you share links to "other places" (with a minimal effort). (Or you can tell me "Quit being lazy, Google is your friend") :lol:
Mainly just here and in comments in the recent crash write up over on that site I linked to above (Kathryn's Report). I haven't done extensive research, just kinda looked at what I've stumbled upon. I've seen others, but don't remember where. I can see if I can find them. Nothing major really. Just comments related to the attitudes and/or intelligence of participants and/or leadership.
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Re: CAP

Postby 3WE » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:45 pm

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Re: CAP

Postby KPryor » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:12 pm

Interesting reading. The nearest CAP group to me is about an hours drive. If I ever have a free moment, I wouldn't mind paying them a visit. If I had the time, I would consider joining but not until I had more info. You'd think a retired guy like me would have more free time, but I stay pretty busy. Still, I do miss participating in emergency public service and I think I have skills that would benefit them as well as the fact I feel I could potentially get something out of it too.
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Re: CAP

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:17 pm

I think CAP can/may be a good thing, but I know I've read many negative things. I have no first hand knowledge, just news and forum postings I've read. I am absolutely not putting them down by any means. I don't know enough to do that. Honestly, I love the idea of it if run correctly.
But from the postings I've read here and other places, it seems it is plagued by the same power trip people that other volunteer orgs I have been affiliated with had. I wondered if that, plus the fact you have to pay for the privilege to volunteer your time perhaps keeps some good people out. Maybe not, I don't know.
Admittedly, I am a tightwad. I don't spend a ton of money on things and I would be hard pressed to pay for the privilege of volunteering my time and also getting to also pay even more for my uniform.
I don't think there are any volunteer organizations (particularly ones having to do with any sort of emergency services) where there are no "power trip" people. I've been volunteering on and off since 1996, presently am with a combination department (volunteer AND paid), and the same dog and pony show tends to reappear every so often. When a cubicle drone or someone who does some other menial job in the "real world" gets a chance to be in charge of something for one and only time in their life, it tends to go to their head. I've learned to just ignore people like that, most of the time they don't even realize they're being ignored.

As for the dues, you're not so much paying for the privilege of volunteering your time, it's more that you're offsetting some of the costs they will incur by taking you on (background check, training etc). To me that's not quite the same thing.
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Re: CAP

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:18 pm

Interesting reading. The nearest CAP group to me is about an hours drive. If I ever have a free moment, I wouldn't mind paying them a visit. If I had the time, I would consider joining but not until I had more info. You'd think a retired guy like me would have more free time, but I stay pretty busy. Still, I do miss participating in emergency public service and I think I have skills that would benefit them as well as the fact I feel I could potentially get something out of it too.
I would think, with your background, some sort of auxiliary police work might make more sense.
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KPryor
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Re: CAP

Postby KPryor » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:26 pm

Interesting reading. The nearest CAP group to me is about an hours drive. If I ever have a free moment, I wouldn't mind paying them a visit. If I had the time, I would consider joining but not until I had more info. You'd think a retired guy like me would have more free time, but I stay pretty busy. Still, I do miss participating in emergency public service and I think I have skills that would benefit them as well as the fact I feel I could potentially get something out of it too.
I would think, with your background, some sort of auxiliary police work might make more sense.
Honestly, after 28 years of police work, the last thing I want to do is more of it LOL Prior to becoming a cop, I was an ambulance EMT and also belonged to an all volunteer rescue squad doing vehicle crash extrications, hazmat, etc. In addition to regular police work, I was also a certified digital forensic analyst and have done lots of IT work in my own part-time business. I'm also a Ham radio operator, so I think I could benefit CAP in IT type stuff as well as comms. My experience in LE and rescue also includes some search and rescue activity. I just know I love aviation and think I could be a good one for CAP under the right circumstances. Just not sure I have the time right now to commit.
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Re: CAP

Postby KPryor » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:28 pm

I don't think there are any volunteer organizations (particularly ones having to do with any sort of emergency services) where there are no "power trip" people. I've been volunteering on and off since 1996, presently am with a combination department (volunteer AND paid), and the same dog and pony show tends to reappear every so often. When a cubicle drone or someone who does some other menial job in the "real world" gets a chance to be in charge of something for one and only time in their life, it tends to go to their head. I've learned to just ignore people like that, most of the time they don't even realize they're being ignored.
True. I've been in other volunteer and paid orgs where people get really full of themselves. It's definitely not an issue for only one particular org like CAP.
As for the dues, you're not so much paying for the privilege of volunteering your time, it's more that you're offsetting some of the costs they will incur by taking you on (background check, training etc). To me that's not quite the same thing.
Good point.
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Re: CAP

Postby flyboy2548m » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:54 am


Honestly, after 28 years of police work, the last thing I want to do is more of it...
Yeah, I imagine you're sick to death of it by now.
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Re: CAP

Postby 3WE » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:37 pm

I may (or may not) go back and get all 3? links where Civilian Pilot engaged in discussions.

Yesterday, I remember reading his theme that AFTER WWI, the organization's charge was exclusively not_combat, yet, Civilian Pilot inferred that maybe they didn't quite understand that.

I did use a little Google today to find the Flyover Chapter of the CAP and this photo:

Non combat.JPG
Non combat.JPG (62.89 KiB) Viewed 11132 times


Perhaps there is a certain underlying objective of several of the members to "play army".

Search and rescue is best done wearing camouflage?

Footnote: The photo was after the activity of giving a 172 and a 182 a "thorough preflight".
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Re: CAP

Postby flyboy2548m » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:20 pm

I may (or may not) go back and get all 3? links where Civilian Pilot engaged in discussions.

Yesterday, I remember reading his theme that AFTER WWI, the organization's charge was exclusively not_combat, yet, Civilian Pilot inferred that maybe they didn't quite understand that.

I did use a little Google today to find the Flyover Chapter of the CAP and this photo:


Non combat.JPG



Perhaps there is a certain underlying objective of several of the members to "play army".

Search and rescue is best done wearing camouflage?

Footnote: The photo was after the activity of giving a 172 and a 182 a "thorough preflight".
Good heavens...
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Re: CAP

Postby Not_Karl » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:31 pm

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a valid business operating amateur-flown 172's for important, government search, rescue and defense from scouting for Russian submarines in the Mississippi river.
U$S100 fee
Search and rescue is best done wearing camouflage?
Maybe we should have a higher price tier where we are given torpedoes and depth charges to blow up them damn Commies! Volunteer numbers would surely skyrocket.
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Re: CAP

Postby elaw » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:38 pm

Search and rescue is best done wearing camouflage?
The camouflage is very important.

It allows the searchers to approach the ones they're searching for without startling them. That in turn prevents them (the searchees) from experiencing emotional distress, which would cause them to fly on commercial aeroplanies with emotional support animals (which have no muzzles). Said animals are therefore prevented from biting the hosties, who in turn would storm the cockpit of the airliner, causing it to crash into a stadium where a benefit concert for the ASPCA is being held, with 30,000 attendees.

So one proper uniform can save upwards of 30,000 lives!
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Re: CAP

Postby KPryor » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:36 am

I may (or may not) go back and get all 3? links where Civilian Pilot engaged in discussions.

Yesterday, I remember reading his theme that AFTER WWI, the organization's charge was exclusively not_combat, yet, Civilian Pilot inferred that maybe they didn't quite understand that.

I did use a little Google today to find the Flyover Chapter of the CAP and this photo:


Non combat.JPG



Perhaps there is a certain underlying objective of several of the members to "play army".

Search and rescue is best done wearing camouflage?

Footnote: The photo was after the activity of giving a 172 and a 182 a "thorough preflight".
I did find some posts by Civilian Pilot on the captalk forum. They were informative and entertaining at the same time. I miss that guy.

Regarding the wearing of camouflage, it's imperative that those needing rescue are unaware they are about to be rescued, else they may run away and ask to be rescued by someone else. Hence the need for camo to keep them unawares till the moment they are appropriately rescued.
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Re: CAP

Postby 3WE » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:52 pm

Good heavens...
Do their uniforms appear to be complaint?

Thanks in advance.

I also believe that Not_Karl had a good suggestion for adding a second tier to the membership: 1) SAR and 2) Low level bombing of enemy watercraft.
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Re: CAP

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:06 pm

Good heavens...
Do their uniforms appear to be complaint?

In case of the guy with glasses on the far left and the fossil on the far right the answer would be no.
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Re: CAP

Postby 3WE » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:13 pm

Glamour photos
A good glamour photo takes time and effort. Details are important.

Learning to fly takes time and effort. Details are important.

We see evidence of an airplane being used for several good glamour photos- including in-flight when one might be expected to be practicing and learning.

We see evidence of an airplane being used for some not-so-good cross country's and landings.

Therefore- reasonable speculation that priorities might be misplaced.

We also see time and effort to dress up AS THOUGH you are a pilot, when maybe you ARE NOT a pilot...again, evidence points to wrong priorities + limited evidence of the right priorities.

Proof no...Valid speculation, yes.
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Re: CAP

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:05 pm

Glamour photos
A good glamour photo takes time and effort. Details are important.

Learning to fly takes time and effort. Details are important.

We see evidence of an airplane being used for several good glamour photos- including in-flight when one might be expected to be practicing and learning.

We see evidence of an airplane being used for some not-so-good cross country's and landings.

Therefore- reasonable speculation that priorities might be misplaced.

We also see time and effort to dress up AS THOUGH you are a pilot, when maybe you ARE NOT a pilot...again, evidence points to wrong priorities + limited evidence of the right priorities.

Proof no...Valid speculation, yes.
That was the point I tried to make when I mentioned those shots in the Birmingham incident discussion on pprune. Not surprisingly, I was thoroughly lambasted for bringing them up as "they are irrelevant to her skills" (or something to that effect). I tried to explain (in vain, of course) that I was not trying to make a statement on her skills, but rather to talk about her state of mind and, as you pointed out, her priorities.

Now, I will be the first to admit that perhaps I take the uniform somewhat more seriously than many, perhaps even more than most. It took nearly a decade of my life to earn the right to wear ANY airline uniform, it took two years to earn the right to wear my current one, and three more after that to earn that fourth stripe, so to use it (the uniform) as some kind of a prop is something I would never even consider. I have been photographed in uniform plenty of times, including by people from my airline's marketing department, but it was always in the context of work, not in some glorified makeup session.
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3WE
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Re: CAP

Postby 3WE » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:42 pm

Not surprisingly, I was thoroughly lambasted for bringing them up as "they are irrelevant to her skills" (or something to that effect). I tried to explain (in vain, of course) that I was not trying to make a statement on her skills, but rather to talk about her state of mind and, as you pointed out, her priorities.
Unfortunate, and Indeed.

It is a no-win argument.

Do we KNOW? No. Are there correlations? Sometimes there are.

Modern black and white "HR policy" frowns on such gray areas so there is no place for such talk.

And Indeed: In one way- attention to uniform detail is correlated to attention to detail in operating the plane...and in other ways, it can be a misplaced priority.

In the realm of stuff for which there is no proof- It seems as though there's a lot of silence from her instructor and others regarding her skill level. The CAP probably has a pretty good gag order, but still, I'd expect a comment or two to leak out from somewhere (Acknowledging that the discussion section of Ken's link DID have some unconfirmed things to that effect).
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Re: CAP

Postby 3WE » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:40 pm

Another twist is that I’d assume UPS had much stricter and effective screening, training and evaluation, as compared to the Oxford Civilian Fighter Pilots Association.
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Re: CAP

Postby KPryor » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:13 pm

the Oxford Civilian Fighter Pilots Association.
That was just plain funny.
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