A400M troubles, the latest news...

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David Hilditch
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby David Hilditch » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:33 am

Airborne this morning.

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supersean
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby supersean » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:25 pm

Airborne this morning.
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Sickbag
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Sickbag » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:10 pm

There will be substaintial USAF orders for this aircraft within five years.
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within 18 months...

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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby rattler » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:38 pm

Vid and gallery of the maiden flight, and impressive baby indeed!

http://www.airbusmilitary.com/

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Sincere condolences to all Norwegians! I guess you will need some aquevit to get over this.

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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:20 pm

There will be substaintial USAF orders for this aircraft within five years.
Yes, by then they will be running out of target drones.
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby P3_Super_Bee » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:31 pm

From the Link above...
Aircraft types currently fulfilling the military tactical transport role in the world’s air forces are becoming obsolete either because of old age or because of difficult supportability.
Hmm. Which aircraft are they referring to here? Can't think of any...
Not a Boeing or Airbus guy. Lockheed is the way... 20 year Lockheed P-3 Orion guy...

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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Princess Leia » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:29 am

From the Link above...
Aircraft types currently fulfilling the military tactical transport role in the world’s air forces are becoming obsolete either because of old age or because of difficult supportability.
Hmm. Which aircraft are they referring to here? Can't think of any...
Transall C-160, IL-76, AN-12...

European crackerboxes.
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Marc 1 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:44 am

There will be substaintial USAF orders for this aircraft within five years.
Probably configired as an air refueling tanker! :mrgreen:

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supersean
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby supersean » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:04 pm

Great pics & vids of the a400.... lets hope that the program is a success. I see so much risk that should have been mitigated early on in the program.

Bravo Zulu EADS....!
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rattler
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby rattler » Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:23 pm

-snip- "Der Spiegel" is generally a magazine that builds on the German Angst: no matter what good things happen in the world, "Der Spiegel" finds the fly in the ointment. Typically German.
Yes, and yes: Also, - while I personally see it as overdoing stuff - typical journo, it is their job to put the finger where it hurts.

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Sincere condolences to all Norwegians! I guess you will need some aquevit to get over this.

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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby rattler » Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:24 pm

From the Link above...
Aircraft types currently fulfilling the military tactical transport role in the world’s air forces are becoming obsolete either because of old age or because of difficult supportability.
Hmm. Which aircraft are they referring to here? Can't think of any...
C-130, C-160. IL 76, etc... .

We are in crisis (as we say in Spain)

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Sincere condolences to all Norwegians! I guess you will need some aquevit to get over this.

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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Marc 1 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:59 am

FYI, here is the strongest challenger to the A400 IHMO - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-X. Take dome of the info on that with a teaspoon of skepticism, the P-X for instance does not share engines but the stats look promising. First flight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXrLLFPF ... r_embedded

The Embraer effort is smaller and will be many years away from its first flight. The Kwaka looks very appealing, CF6's (also being used on the C-5M's) should ensure reliability and worlwide parts availability as opposed to the one off turboprops on the A400.

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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Ancient Mariner » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:24 am

FYI, here is the strongest challenger to the A400 IHMO - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-X. Take dome of the info on that with a teaspoon of skepticism, the P-X for instance does not share engines but the stats look promising. First flight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXrLLFPF ... r_embedded

The Embraer effort is smaller and will be many years away from its first flight. The Kwaka looks very appealing, CF6's (also being used on the C-5M's) should ensure reliability and worlwide parts availability as opposed to the one off turboprops on the A400.
Pretty smoooothe return to terra firma by that Kawa. I do agree, it looks appalling.
Per

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Princess Leia
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Princess Leia » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:31 pm

FYI, here is the strongest challenger to the A400 IHMO - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-X. Take dome of the info on that with a teaspoon of skepticism, the P-X for instance does not share engines but the stats look promising. First flight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXrLLFPF ... r_embedded

The Embraer effort is smaller and will be many years away from its first flight. The Kwaka looks very appealing, CF6's (also being used on the C-5M's) should ensure reliability and worlwide parts availability as opposed to the one off turboprops on the A400.
Now only if Parliament would allow its export I can see a lot of lobbying coming up....
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:57 pm

It is all over but the screaming.
Talks to save A400M end in deadlock
Financial Times 01/28/2010
Authors: Peggy Hollinger and Gerrit Wiesmann
© 2009 The Financial Times Limited. All rights reserved

Talks to save one of Europe's largest defence projects have ended in deadlock, in spite of governments offering to pay EADS €2bn to help cover huge cost overruns on the A400M military transporter.

Several people close to the talks told the Financial Times that Germany, France, the UK and four other European countries had signalled they would be willing to help with extra costs.

The project is more than €5bn (£4.3bn) above the €20bn fixed price EADS subsidiary Airbus agreed to almost seven years ago.

The 180-aircraft order for the transport plane, being designed and built by Airbus, is at least four years late.

EADS has threatened to abandon the A400M if the seven governments fail to fund a large portion of the cost overrun, as it believes its civil business could struggle with new tasks such as the looming redesign of its A320.

While France, the UK and Spain signalled early on they would be prepared to pay more, or use other methods such as stretching delivery times, Berlin had until now dug its heels in about making changes to the original contract.

Officials on both sides said Berlin had softened its line and joined its partners in offering to compensate EADS for €2bn in costs - although it remained open whether this would be through cash payments or by finding ways to reduce production costs.

Other people close to the talks confirmed that the seven governments had tabled a "global offer" but that EADS had rejected it because it was still "billions away" from a figure that would be acceptable to the company.

Officials on both sides said EADS also had rejected an offer of state creditguarantees, which would have meant it could borrow to cover cost-overruns. But these people said a credit-guarantee could still be in a deal.

Government officials reported that EADS in effect had raised the amount of money it was looking for by adding a formula to the €5bn cost-overrun to compensate for raw material price rises and some other price increases.

"We started the talks looking to bridge a gap of around €5bn," an official briefed about the talks told the FT. "However, we ended the talks aware that EADS was really looking for around €6bn-€7bn."

Government procurement ministers and the heads of EADS and Airbus, Louis Gallois and Tom Enders, spent the end of last week and Tuesday of this week pushing for deal before a self-imposed deadline of January 31.

One person close to the negotiations said the talks had ended on "bad terms" and spoke of "a deadlock situation" but all sides were expected to attempt one more meeting before the Franco-German summit late next week.

Officials in Paris and Berlin said the issue was still being dealt with at defence-ministry levels, but that it was now possible Nicolas Sarkozy, French president, and Angela Merkel, German chancellor, would discuss the issue, at least informally.
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Marc 1 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:20 pm

FYI, here is the strongest challenger to the A400 IHMO - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-X. Take dome of the info on that with a teaspoon of skepticism, the P-X for instance does not share engines but the stats look promising. First flight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXrLLFPF ... r_embedded

The Embraer effort is smaller and will be many years away from its first flight. The Kwaka looks very appealing, CF6's (also being used on the C-5M's) should ensure reliability and worlwide parts availability as opposed to the one off turboprops on the A400.
Now only if Parliament would allow its export I can see a lot of lobbying coming up....
Yep, been quite a few changes in recent years, the Japanese no longer have a self defence force for instance, there is a fairly good possibility of co-operation between the Japanese and us Aussies on a large next gen conventional sub. Both things were unthinkable 15 years ago.

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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Ancient Mariner » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:38 pm


Yep, been quite a few changes in recent years, the Japanese no longer have a self defence force for instance, there is a fairly good possibility of co-operation between the Japanese and us Aussies on a large next gen conventional sub. Both things were unthinkable 15 years ago.
I thought you guys were a bit unhappy with Jap' whaling practices? Ironic if you co-operate with them on subs', don't you think. Considering your last effort it can't be any worse. :mrgreen:
Per

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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Marc 1 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:14 am


Yep, been quite a few changes in recent years, the Japanese no longer have a self defence force for instance, there is a fairly good possibility of co-operation between the Japanese and us Aussies on a large next gen conventional sub. Both things were unthinkable 15 years ago.
I thought you guys were a bit unhappy with Jap' whaling practices? Ironic if you co-operate with them on subs', don't you think. Considering your last effort it can't be any worse. :mrgreen:
Per
True - maybe we can get Toyota to do the reliability. We're down to one out of the six subs operational.

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supersean
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby supersean » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:29 am

The new rumor is that EADS might be shopping the IP of the a400 to interested buyers... Since this is meerly skuttlebutt who could it be...China? US?
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Ancient Mariner » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:47 am


Yep, been quite a few changes in recent years, the Japanese no longer have a self defence force for instance, there is a fairly good possibility of co-operation between the Japanese and us Aussies on a large next gen conventional sub. Both things were unthinkable 15 years ago.
I thought you guys were a bit unhappy with Jap' whaling practices? Ironic if you co-operate with them on subs', don't you think. Considering your last effort it can't be any worse. :mrgreen:
Per
True - maybe we can get Toyota to do the reliability. We're down to one out of the six subs operational.
Maybe you should shy away from Toyota too, at least from the time being. A sub on full frozen power and with no brakes is no laughing matter. :o
Per

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Verbal
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:56 pm

Time to call in a priest and give the A400M its last rites.
Airbus threatens to quit A400m unless governments agree funding
The Daily Telegraph (London) 02/12/2010
Copyright (C) 2010 The Daily Telegraph; Source: World Reporter (TM)

Airbus has threatened to start winding down work on the troubled A400M military transport project within days if long-running talks with national buyers do not yield results.

Tom Enders, chief executive, told unions in Spain that he was ready to stop work on the aircraft on Monday if no agreement on funding is reached with European governments.

Airbus and its parent company EADS are negotiating with seven European governments over how to divide billions of euros of cost overruns. The discussions have already dragged on beyond the January 31 deadline laid down by Airbus.

Mr Enders has told the governments that he is ready to divert funding from the A400M to other projects such as the A350 airliner.

The A400M is costing EADS between euro100m ( pounds 87m) and euro150m a month while talks continue with Britain, Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Spain and Turkey. A decision to stop work could be reversed if an agreement was reached.
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Princess Leia
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Princess Leia » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:12 am

Time to call in a priest and give the A400M its last rites.
Airbus threatens to quit A400m unless governments agree funding
The Daily Telegraph (London) 02/12/2010
Copyright (C) 2010 The Daily Telegraph; Source: World Reporter (TM)

Airbus has threatened to start winding down work on the troubled A400M military transport project within days if long-running talks with national buyers do not yield results.

Tom Enders, chief executive, told unions in Spain that he was ready to stop work on the aircraft on Monday if no agreement on funding is reached with European governments.

Airbus and its parent company EADS are negotiating with seven European governments over how to divide billions of euros of cost overruns. The discussions have already dragged on beyond the January 31 deadline laid down by Airbus.

Mr Enders has told the governments that he is ready to divert funding from the A400M to other projects such as the A350 airliner.

The A400M is costing EADS between euro100m ( pounds 87m) and euro150m a month while talks continue with Britain, Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Spain and Turkey. A decision to stop work could be reversed if an agreement was reached.

It's a bluff. An audit by PWC (not the engine maker) had determined that EADS could not afford to quit

Read and try not to giggle:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE60J26S20100120
FACTBOX-Auditors blast EADS management over A400M
Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:20am EST
Stocks

European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company EADS N.V.
EAD.PA
€13.75
+0.02+0.15%
12:00am MST
BERLIN, Jan 20 (Reuters) - A report blaming Airbus (EAD.PA) managers for huge cost overruns on the delayed A400M military transporter turned up the heat on the planemaker in a row over who will foot the bill. [ID:nLDE60J0JB]

STOCKS | MERGERS & ACQUISITIONS | BONDS | GLOBAL MARKETS

Following are some key findings from the PricewaterhouseCoopers (PWC) audit:

- PWC said it found no evidence that robust systems had been established to monitor costs booked to the A400M programme against the actual value delivered. There is no mechanism to understand how advanced the programme is.

- The budgeting process of Airbus parent EADS has consistently and significantly underestimated the costs of the A400M and concluded the current process has limited value.

- The total anticipated cost overruns for A400M are 11.2 billion euros. This can be cut by 3.6 billion euros through management changes, leaving a realistic anticipation of an expected loss of 7.6 billion euros.

- Processes and management will require significant improvement in order to deliver cost savings.

- The main cost driver and reasons for cost overruns were the technical complexity of the aircraft and the numerous design changes.

- Assuming a loss of no more than 7.6 billion euros, EADS is likely to suffer a credit rating downgrade but should still be able to access funding.

- Cancelling the contract would have more severe implications for EADS than continuing with it due to a more adverse credit rating impact and the likelihood that funding sources would be restricted. It also noted the market has not factored a cancellation into its assessment of EADS. (Reporting by Sabine Siebold; Editing by David Cowell)
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David Hilditch
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby David Hilditch » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:07 am

Time to call in a priest and give the A400M its last rites.
Apparently not. I have been out this past couple of weeks working for world peace, but I see nothing from those of you here who have confidently predicted the demise of the A400.

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Verbal
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby Verbal » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:53 pm

Concur. European prestige is at stake.
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Re: A400M troubles, the latest news...

Postby David Hilditch » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:52 pm

Concur. European prestige is at stake.
It is indeed shocking that European powers will want to enhance and bolster their prestige. Not unlike what the US is doing with the latest KC-X RFP developments.


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