Can the RAF afford to continue paying for the A400 and purchase another C-17?Latest word is sometime between Dec. 6 and 13 for FF.
In other news, the RAF is getting close to signing for C-17 #8
There is talk of sweeping cuts over the whole board.
Moderators: MikeD, Robert Hilton
Can the RAF afford to continue paying for the A400 and purchase another C-17?Latest word is sometime between Dec. 6 and 13 for FF.
In other news, the RAF is getting close to signing for C-17 #8
Remember when we had the VC-10, Argosy, C-130, Britannia, Belfast, Comet, Andover, Hastings, Varsity, Beverley, Twin Pioneer - more or less at the same time in - what - the late 1960s............... Probably others too I have forgotten. I read a statistic recently than in an average year in the 1950s the RAF wrote off as many airframes in accidents as today's entire air force.I suppose the big question is, can the RAF afford to have so many different transport types on inventory?
Oh, David, I'm sure you've forgotten more things than any of us can ever know.Remember when we had the VC-10, Argosy, C-130, Britannia, Belfast, Comet, Andover, Hastings, Varsity, Beverley, Twin Pioneer - more or less at the same time in - what - the late 1960s............... Probably others too I have forgotten.
Indeed David I do remember the wealth of types in the late '60's. A good many of them had rather short service lives which does make their purchase somewhat expensive. I don't think the Air Staff wish to repeat that again.Remember when we had the VC-10, Argosy, C-130, Britannia, Belfast, Comet, Andover, Hastings, Varsity, Beverley, Twin Pioneer - more or less at the same time in - what - the late 1960s............... Probably others too I have forgotten. I read a statistic recently than in an average year in the 1950s the RAF wrote off as many airframes in accidents as today's entire air force.I suppose the big question is, can the RAF afford to have so many different transport types on inventory?
Undoubtedly many sweeping cuts to come, although air transport will have to have a higher priority versus more fast jets if we are to make even a half-assed attempt to meet current commitments. I think the early C-17s were funded on a cheaper lease-to-puchase basis, so that is one option. C-17s can - just - also be used on tactical missions, though Boeing imposed some restrictions when they were leased. While the A400M is not popular on this board, it has made rapid progress this past few months and has the potential to be a winner. I hope it performs in UK service in large numbers as well as with other air arms. I think production will be slow but steady - and could outlast most of the liftetimes of this website's members (cf. the C-130).
Even the Spruce Goose flew... does not mean it will make it into production. If any of the main players in the EU consortium pull out it MAY be the cue to strike up the band.Saw itwritten elsewhere that they are now doing medium speed taxi trials (up to 80 knots). I think rumours of the A400's demise are fairly premature.
European pride will ensure it still goes ahead even if it cruises at 60 knots, has a payload of 100kg's and requires a 10,000m runway to become airborn. Then it will be hailed as a great success, then quietly removed from service to become paperweights.Even the Spruce Goose flew... does not mean it will make it into production. If any of the main players in the EU consortium pull out it MAY be the cue to strike up the band.Saw itwritten elsewhere that they are now doing medium speed taxi trials (up to 80 knots). I think rumours of the A400's demise are fairly premature.
With an existing platform meeting requirements (C-17) it may be easier for some in the EU to pull the plug.It would be interesting to see if there are any public source comparisons of the two aircraft... I'll start to dig around a bit.European pride will ensure it still goes ahead even if it cruises at 60 knots, has a payload of 100kg's and requires a 10,000m runway to become airborn. Then it will be hailed as a great success, then quietly removed from service to become paperweights.Even the Spruce Goose flew... does not mean it will make it into production. If any of the main players in the EU consortium pull out it MAY be the cue to strike up the band.Saw itwritten elsewhere that they are now doing medium speed taxi trials (up to 80 knots). I think rumours of the A400's demise are fairly premature.
There are too many other programs that are being designed for the euro militaries for this program to fail now. Quite a few items of new hardware are around the 30 - 35 tonne payload, so if the A400 is cancelled the only alternative would be C-17's or that Antonov design (An-70?) that was shelved a while back. That sized payload is too much for a Herc. Interestingly, LM is looking at a larger, more powerful derivative of the C130 with a payload and load bay around the same size as the A 400. Only a design proposal for now. So it will go ahead, the question is how close to the design targets will they be and how long will it remain in service.
Plenty of public info available. The C-17 can lift roughly twice the load, will, after all of the cost overruns in the A-400 program be probably fairly comparable in cost and its in service and working right now. On the debit side its a 15 year older design, not that it matters one iota in this instance. This decision to keep pursuing the A400 is not economically based, it's politically and pride based. There may be further orders from existing C130 operators who do not want to buy US (as in C-17) which may help to turn around this programs fortunes, but that will depend on the unit price and how closely Airbus has met it's design parameters. If they only sell the ordered numbers then this really will just be a 'sheltered workshop' for Airbus, and a government sponsored employment program for the EU.With an existing platform meeting requirements (C-17) it may be easier for some in the EU to pull the plug.It would be interesting to see if there are any public source comparisons of the two aircraft... I'll start to dig around a bit.European pride will ensure it still goes ahead even if it cruises at 60 knots, has a payload of 100kg's and requires a 10,000m runway to become airborn. Then it will be hailed as a great success, then quietly removed from service to become paperweights.
There are too many other programs that are being designed for the euro militaries for this program to fail now. Quite a few items of new hardware are around the 30 - 35 tonne payload, so if the A400 is cancelled the only alternative would be C-17's or that Antonov design (An-70?) that was shelved a while back. That sized payload is too much for a Herc. Interestingly, LM is looking at a larger, more powerful derivative of the C130 with a payload and load bay around the same size as the A 400. Only a design proposal for now. So it will go ahead, the question is how close to the design targets will they be and how long will it remain in service.
So how does that differentiate the A400M from every other EADS/Airbus program?If they only sell the ordered numbers then this really will just be a 'sheltered workshop' for Airbus, and a government sponsored employment program for the EU.
FWIW, the An-70 hasn't been shelved, but it certainly isn't proceeding very quickly.There are too many other programs that are being designed for the euro militaries for this program to fail now. Quite a few items of new hardware are around the 30 - 35 tonne payload, so if the A400 is cancelled the only alternative would be C-17's or that Antonov design (An-70?) that was shelved a while back. That sized payload is too much for a Herc. Interestingly, LM is looking at a larger, more powerful derivative of the C130 with a payload and load bay around the same size as the A 400. Only a design proposal for now. So it will go ahead, the question is how close to the design targets will they be and how long will it remain in service.
Quite a big difference - on military production lines, the staff get Nair in the staff showers, razors only in the commercial aircraft assembly line showers.So how does that differentiate the A400M from every other EADS/Airbus program?If they only sell the ordered numbers then this really will just be a 'sheltered workshop' for Airbus, and a government sponsored employment program for the EU.
Crumbs, you are not kidding! First flight 1994, testing continues... Just refreshed my memory on the AN70, sounds like a far better alternative than the A-400 anyway.FWIW, the An-70 hasn't been shelved, but it certainly isn't proceeding very quickly.There are too many other programs that are being designed for the euro militaries for this program to fail now. Quite a few items of new hardware are around the 30 - 35 tonne payload, so if the A400 is cancelled the only alternative would be C-17's or that Antonov design (An-70?) that was shelved a while back. That sized payload is too much for a Herc. Interestingly, LM is looking at a larger, more powerful derivative of the C130 with a payload and load bay around the same size as the A 400. Only a design proposal for now. So it will go ahead, the question is how close to the design targets will they be and how long will it remain in service.
I thought it was their liveries.Quite a big difference - on military production lines, the staff get Nair in the staff showers, razors only in the commercial aircraft assembly line showers.So how does that differentiate the A400M from every other EADS/Airbus program?If they only sell the ordered numbers then this really will just be a 'sheltered workshop' for Airbus, and a government sponsored employment program for the EU.
Wasn't he in The Princess Bride?"An unexpected circumstance can always delay take-off by a few hours, even a few days, at the last moment," Airbus Military director Domingo Urena said.
Yes. Always good to have another gig on the side in case EADS decides its all too much trouble.Wasn't he in The Princess Bride?"An unexpected circumstance can always delay take-off by a few hours, even a few days, at the last moment," Airbus Military director Domingo Urena said.
EADS pleads for €5bn to complete A400M
Financial Times 12/10/2009
Authors: Jeremy Lemer and Gerrit Wiesmann
© 2009 The Financial Times Limited. All rights reserved
EADS, the European defence and aerospace group, has asked the seven partner nations behind the much-delayed A400M military transport aircraft for a further €5bn ($7.36bn) to complete the project.
Should the countries agree, it would raise the project costs by about 25 per cent but would provide a lifeline to EADS .
Officials are reviewing the request, according to German defence ministry officials. Senior negotiators will discuss the topic further tomorrow in Seville, Spain, where the A400M is scheduled to make its much anticipated first flight .
The A400M deal, signed in 2003, was a fixed-price €20bn contract, making EADS's Airbus subsidiary responsible for all overruns. EADS has already made provisions for €2.4bn of losses on the A400M and is burning through €140m of cash a month on the project.
But it is tied to the aircraft because cancelling would trigger €5.7bn of development funding repayments and damage its credibility.
Still it will be a difficult deal to sell to the customer countries that between them have ordered 180 of the mid-sized military transporters. Defence budgets are under pressure due to the financial and economic crisis. An EADS spokesman declined to comment on the request.
The partner nations have been in intense discussions with EADS since March, when Airbus breached its contract after missing a key deadline to fly the aircraft, giving them a strong negotiating position.
Currently they are working to a year-end deadline to rescue the flagship collaborative procurement programme, but negotiations in France and Germany have proved fruitless.
Options on the table include raising the price, maintaining the price but reducing the number of aircraft by about 40, cutting the specifications of the aircraft or splitting the purchase into several tranches to spread out the costs over a longer period.
Negotiations have been complicated by different national priorities. Germany has taken a particularly tough line, demanding that the original contract be retained in full. Britain is torn between a desire to save cash and a need to get the aircraft into service and France and Spain want to protect EADS as an industrial champion.
One German official said it was still hard to see what a solution could look like. "But everyone is working towards a deal," the official said. "One thing is for sure - none of the governments want this problem around over and beyond Christmas."
Things are going to get real ugly real quick.... this is critical juncture that very well become the program end.. EADS may have biten off more than they can chew and not mind losing this one to allow focus on their bread & butter... commercial operations.It is all rapidly devolving before our eyes.
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