http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0818811020100308Northrop to skip tanker bid, EADS mulls going solo
Mon Mar 8, 2010 1:55pm EST
WASHINGTON/PARIS, March 8 (Reuters) - Northrop Grumman Corp plans to announce on Monday that it will not compete for the U.S. Air Force's multibillion-dollar aerial tanker contract, forcing Airbus parent EADS to decide whether it will submit a solo bid, according to sources closely following the issue.
Northrop spokesman Randy Belote declined comment, saying his company would announce a decision when it finished analyzing the Air Force's final request for proposals (RFP).
EADS officials in Paris and Washington also declined comment.
But sources briefed on the decision said Northrop had told EADS it would not bid, forcing EADS to consider its options, including possibly bidding for the work without Northrop despite continuing reservations about how the competition is structured. They said an announcement was expected after the close of the U.S. stock market.
The sources declined to be identified since they were not authorized to speak on the record.
"If they don't see big money, they don't want to do anything," said one European defense source in describing Northrop's decision.
Northrop and EADS won the last competition in February 2008 with an Airbus A330-based tanker plane, but the deal, valued at around $35 billion, was later canceled after government auditors upheld a Boeing Co protest.
Northrop told the Pentagon in December it would not submit a bid in this follow-on competition unless there were significant changes to the Air Force's draft rules, which it said clearly favored Boeing's smaller 767 airplane.
EADS, anxious to add to its defense portfolio and gain a bigger foothold in the United States, has been backing a new bid by Northrop, a European source told Reuters last week. (Reporting by Andrea Shalal-Esa and Tim Hepher in Paris)
KC-X revisited
Moderators: MikeD, Robert Hilton
Re: KC-X revisited
"I'm putting an end to this f*ckery." - Rayna Boyanov
- Robert Hilton
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: Limburg, the Netherlands
Re: KC-X revisited
Would you like the long or the short answer?Are you Gabriel?
- Robert Hilton
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: Limburg, the Netherlands
Re: KC-X revisited
Thanks for the updates Verbal.
Not really a surprise, but it is a shame. I hope it's not another prima donna act to raise the odds.
Still think the KC45 would be a better choice, especially later in it's working life. It's not an AvB thing, I just think it will.
I can appreciate your not quite agreeing with me on this.
Not really a surprise, but it is a shame. I hope it's not another prima donna act to raise the odds.
Still think the KC45 would be a better choice, especially later in it's working life. It's not an AvB thing, I just think it will.
I can appreciate your not quite agreeing with me on this.
Re: KC-X revisited
Neither the 767 nor the A330 are exactly spring chickens. Regardless, military acquisition programs of this kind tend to shy away from the latest-and-greatest because of the risks involved. What counts more to them is a design that is proven, not which one shows the best CASM as a commercial platform.
And just because right now I am sitting a couple hundred meters from where the KC-767 would be built doesn't mean I favor it. As a U.S. taxpayer, I want the best warfighter for our money!
And just because right now I am sitting a couple hundred meters from where the KC-767 would be built doesn't mean I favor it. As a U.S. taxpayer, I want the best warfighter for our money!
"I'm putting an end to this f*ckery." - Rayna Boyanov
- Robert Hilton
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: Limburg, the Netherlands
Re: KC-X revisited
Well we can certainly agree on that.And just because right now I am sitting a couple hundred meters from where the KC-767 would be built doesn't mean I favor it. As a U.S. taxpayer, I want the best warfighter for our money!
-
- Posts: 1201
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:33 pm
- Location: Washington DC
Re: KC-X revisited
Does anyone think that the mission is being redefined to match the airframe, rather than the best airframe being purchased to fulfill the mission ?
- flyboy2548m
- Posts: 4391
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
- Location: Ormond Beach, FL
Re: KC-X revisited
I'm guessing you do.Does anyone think that the mission is being redefined to match the airframe, rather than the best airframe being purchased to fulfill the mission ?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
Re: KC-X revisited
Tinfoil hat alert!Does anyone think that the mission is being redefined to match the airframe, rather than the best airframe being purchased to fulfill the mission ?
"I'm putting an end to this f*ckery." - Rayna Boyanov
- Robert Hilton
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: Limburg, the Netherlands
Re: KC-X revisited
There is an element of that, the USAF is now being understandably cautious in making the correct (political) choice.Does anyone think that the mission is being redefined to match the airframe, rather than the best airframe being purchased to fulfill the mission ?
The 767 was what they were after to start with. Boeing is trying very hard to deflect from the controversy surrounding that deal.They are also working all out to boost their own standing in the tanker world whilst coming up with all sorts 'reasons' why the KC45 is totally wrong. The 40 billion extra fuel bill for the KC45 being one of the least plausible.
-
- Posts: 1201
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:33 pm
- Location: Washington DC
Re: KC-X revisited
Well, if they want a smaller airframe, as they say they do, why couldn't they go for the A310 MRTT, which is at least in operational service ?
Also, what is the rationale for the 787 flightdeck/cockpit ? Doesn't that add to the cost and considerably increase the risk of further delay ? What is the objective here - a tanker system for the USAF or a job preservation program for Boeing ?
Also, what is the rationale for the 787 flightdeck/cockpit ? Doesn't that add to the cost and considerably increase the risk of further delay ? What is the objective here - a tanker system for the USAF or a job preservation program for Boeing ?
- flyboy2548m
- Posts: 4391
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:32 am
- Location: Ormond Beach, FL
Re: KC-X revisited
Why does it have to be either or?Also, what is the rationale for the 787 flightdeck/cockpit ? Doesn't that add to the cost and considerably increase the risk of further delay ? What is the objective here - a tanker system for the USAF or a job preservation program for Boeing ?
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
Re: KC-X revisited
I believe the A310 is out of production. It is almost impossible to restart production after everything has been shut down. And don't you think Northrup/EADS would have been smart enough to bid a smaller A310-based tanker once they saw that was the direction the contract was going, and if they really had an A310 to offer?Well, if they want a smaller airframe, as they say they do, why couldn't they go for the A310 MRTT, which is at least in operational service ?
Hey, why not let's have both tankers and jobs! They don't have to be mutually exclusive.Also, what is the rationale for the 787 flightdeck/cockpit ? Doesn't that add to the cost and considerably increase the risk of further delay ? What is the objective here - a tanker system for the USAF or a job preservation program for Boeing ?
Seriously though, jobs would have been created regardless of who got awarded the contract. With Boeing, it is jobs in Washington and Kansas; with Northrup/EADS, it would have been jobs in Alabama. And I am sure you noticed that the lawmakers from the respective constituencies bellowed all the correct blather as to why the tanker from their state was clearly the best choice for the Air Force, for the taxpayers, for the country's security, blah blah blah. The political grandstanding in Congress, with all the expected playing-to-the-cheap-seats, was rampant on both sides of the argument.
As for the 787 based cockpit, I have no clue why they are going in that direction.
I assume you are insinuating a repeat of the Sears/Druyun fiasco that scuttled Tanker 1.0. If this is the case, I want names. Actually, your statement above could easily apply to the outcome of Tanker 2.0. You will recall that was when Boeing asked the Air Force if they preferred a 767 or 777 based platform, and the Air Force basically said, "Of course we want the smaller airplane. Don't be daft." Then, when the contract went to the A330 platform, the Air Force publicly stated that they liked it because it was bigger.Does anyone think that the mission is being redefined to match the airframe, rather than the best airframe being purchased to fulfill the mission ?
Anyway David, I assure you that this military contract will mean business as usual for Boeing. That is, the Pentagon will send a big truck full of money to Boeing, who will then send it all over to the commercial side of the house, where they will use it to develop new airliners, install hot tubs in the executive suites, and pay for all the high class hookers. Regards.
"I'm putting an end to this f*ckery." - Rayna Boyanov
- Robert Hilton
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: Limburg, the Netherlands
Re: KC-X revisited
It's good to see all that money wont go to waste.
Re: KC-X revisited
Concur. I have already called dibs on the tall brunette.It's good to see all that money wont go to waste.
"I'm putting an end to this f*ckery." - Rayna Boyanov
- Ancient Mariner
- Posts: 3774
- Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm
Re: KC-X revisited
Thanks for the updates Verbal.
Not really a surprise, but it is a shame. I hope it's not another prima donna act to raise the odds.
Still think the KC45 would be a better choice, especially later in it's working life. It's not an AvB thing, I just think it will.
I can appreciate your not quite agreeing with me on this.
Probably not, EADS pulled out of the competition when Norway skewed the spec's towards the Joint Strike Phighter. They were serious. Why waste money when corruption, be it of the socialist or capitalist kind, rules? Sweet stink of victory, methinks.
Per
Re: KC-X revisited
Yes. Add that to the fact that Boeing as the losing bidder in the last competition (still not sure why this would be the case) was shown all the pricing behind the NG/EADS bid, whereas the reverse was not the case. Boeing then could spec the aircraft to have a lower breakeven cost than the NG bid this time around to ensure they undercut their rivals. A massive advantage given the new RFP is looking at a fixed cost bid, without the wriggle room the last bid provided. NG was facing millions of dollars wasted competing against a competitor that had the unfair advantage of knowing NG's costs, and against an RFP that gave no bonus points for exceeding parameters as the last RFP did. NG/EADS did the only smart thing, they have cut their losses, so the US taxpayer gets a 'competition' involving one 'competitor'. That should be good for keeping the price down...Does anyone think that the mission is being redefined to match the airframe, rather than the best airframe being purchased to fulfill the mission ?
-
- Posts: 1201
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:33 pm
- Location: Washington DC
Re: KC-X revisited
Well, that's partly my original point. Back in the period of the earlier contract proposal (say, 2004 to 2008-ish) I thought that the USAF had decided that the KC-45/A330 was the better overall proposition. And this was also supported by many independent sources. Yes, I know the A310 production line is closed (and that all A310 MRTTs are conversions), but the last A300 came off the line only in 2007. So I presume NG/EADS did not pursue the A310 option because the USAF indicated it generally preferred the larger airframe (more fuel, more troops, more cargo, more modern), despite the higher cost.I believe the A310 is out of production...............Well, if they want a smaller airframe, as they say they do, why couldn't they go for the A310 MRTT, which is at least in operational service ?
So, of course, under the new proposal they changed the mission to reflect the 767 airframe (mainly, I presume, because it was cheaper). Plus what Marc1 said. It just boils down to the worst form of protectionism (worst, because it is political), and so you see why Airbus/EADS has been so determined over the years to counter those specious American claims of "subsidies".
From what I read (and it may be exaggerated, but usually where there’s smoke etc……), the existing 767 tanker deals with Italy and Japan are seriously delayed or the equipment is not working properly, or both. Now, on top of that, they decide to bastardize the thing with a new wing, a 787 flightdeck and who knows what else. That sounds like a real recipe for on-time in-service delivery. EADS has an opening here perhaps to tout the A400 to the American military, especially given that the balance of mutual military sales between the US and Europe is substantially in favor of the US.
Churchill said of the German defeat in North Africa in 1942 : this is not the end, this is not the beginning of the end, but it may perhaps be the end of the beginning. I am not even sure if we’re yet past the end of the beginning on this saga.
Re: KC-X revisited
Is this process ever going to end?
http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/arc ... blog_last3
. . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . ,.-‘”. . . . . . . . . .``~.,
. . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .“-.,
. . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ”:,
. . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\,
. . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,}
. . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.}
. . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:”. . . ./
. . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./
. . . . . . . /__.(. . .“~-,_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`. . . .. ./
. . . . . . /(_. . ”~,_. . . ..“~,_. . . . . . . . . .,:`. . . . _/
. . . .. .{.._$;_. . .”=,_. . . .“-,_. . . ,.-~-,}, .~”; /. .. .}
. . .. . .((. . .*~_. . . .”=-._. . .“;,,./`. . /” . . . ./. .. ../
. . . .. . .\`~,. . ..“~.,. . . . . . . . . ..`. . .}. . . . . . ../
. . . . . .(. ..`=-,,. . . .`. . . . . . . . . . . ..(. . . ;_,,-”
. . . . . ../.`~,. . ..`-.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\. . /\
. . . . . . \`~.*-,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..|,./.....\,__
,,_. . . . . }.>-._\. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|. . . . . . ..`=~-,
. .. `=~-,_\_. . . `\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . .`=~-,,.\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . `:,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . `\. . . . . . ..__
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>--==``
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..`
http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/arc ... blog_last3
. . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . ,.-‘”. . . . . . . . . .``~.,
. . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .“-.,
. . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ”:,
. . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\,
. . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,}
. . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.}
. . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:”. . . ./
. . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./
. . . . . . . /__.(. . .“~-,_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`. . . .. ./
. . . . . . /(_. . ”~,_. . . ..“~,_. . . . . . . . . .,:`. . . . _/
. . . .. .{.._$;_. . .”=,_. . . .“-,_. . . ,.-~-,}, .~”; /. .. .}
. . .. . .((. . .*~_. . . .”=-._. . .“;,,./`. . /” . . . ./. .. ../
. . . .. . .\`~,. . ..“~.,. . . . . . . . . ..`. . .}. . . . . . ../
. . . . . .(. ..`=-,,. . . .`. . . . . . . . . . . ..(. . . ;_,,-”
. . . . . ../.`~,. . ..`-.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\. . /\
. . . . . . \`~.*-,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..|,./.....\,__
,,_. . . . . }.>-._\. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|. . . . . . ..`=~-,
. .. `=~-,_\_. . . `\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . .`=~-,,.\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . `:,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . `\. . . . . . ..__
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>--==``
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..`
proudly serving WTF comments since 2003
- Princess Leia
- Posts: 641
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:44 am
Re: KC-X revisited
OOOH! Now the Russians want to bid with the IL-96. This should be fun!
May a plethora of uncultivated palaeontologists raise the dead in a way that makes your blood boil
- Robert Hilton
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: Limburg, the Netherlands
Re: KC-X revisited
Would you happen to have a link by chance?OOOH! Now the Russians want to bid with the IL-96. This should be fun!
- Princess Leia
- Posts: 641
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:44 am
Re: KC-X revisited
Yep.
http://www.france24.com/en/20100319-rus ... orporation
Let's see if 4 P&W engines plus developing their own boom from scratch (unless they buy it from EAD$) will be cheaper than a 767. Can they even produce that amount? 179 aircraft is at least 3 times the total production so far.
http://www.france24.com/en/20100319-rus ... orporation
Let's see if 4 P&W engines plus developing their own boom from scratch (unless they buy it from EAD$) will be cheaper than a 767. Can they even produce that amount? 179 aircraft is at least 3 times the total production so far.
May a plethora of uncultivated palaeontologists raise the dead in a way that makes your blood boil
Re: KC-X revisited
Shirley the Russians must have A2A refueling capabilities & technologies to leverage. Even if the story is bogus... it is doable!Yep.
http://www.france24.com/en/20100319-rus ... orporation
Let's see if 4 P&W engines plus developing their own boom from scratch (unless they buy it from EAD$) will be cheaper than a 767. Can they even produce that amount? 179 aircraft is at least 3 times the total production so far.
proudly serving WTF comments since 2003
Re: KC-X revisited
The Russians do have the capability. And stop calling me Shirley.
"I'm putting an end to this f*ckery." - Rayna Boyanov
Re: KC-X revisited
Oops, I guess we won't have Russian tankersOOOH! Now the Russians want to bid with the IL-96. This should be fun!
Complete ArticleAir Force tanker bid thrown out for arriving 5 minutes late
Washington (CNN) -- What may be the most contentious Pentagon contract is the focus of yet another fight, with this round centered on whether a bid for a $35 billion contract should be thrown out because it arrived five minutes late.
For about a decade the Air Force has been trying to replace its fleet of KC-135 air refueling tankers, the big jets that act as flying gas stations for warplanes.
In the latest attempt, three companies wanted to submit bids to build the KC-X, the next generation of tankers; Boeing, EADS and US Aerospace.
Each company's bid was required to be submitted to an office at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, by 2 p.m. July 9.
Boeing and EADS got their bids into the office with time to spare. US Aerospace said its bid arrived at Wright-Patterson half an hour before the deadline. The Defense Department said it was five minutes late.
US Aerospace is a new company that is in partnership with Antonov, a state-owned Ukrainian aircraft manufacturer that used to build planes for the Soviet Union's military and now specializes in building very large aircraft.
Because of the late arrival of the bid, the Defense Department will not consider US Aerospace's proposal, according to Pentagon chief spokesman Geoff Morrell.
Re: KC-X revisited
Air Force tanker bid thrown out for arriving 5 minutes late
if only they sent the bid by flying donkey
2022: The year of the Squid Singularity
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests