How 'bout we Go Around?

Aviators sit in the shade of their weatherbeaten, fabric-covered biplanes, exchange hangar talk and tell stories of their barnstorming days before they take to the air again and fly toward the setting sun ....

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Dummy Pilot
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How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby Dummy Pilot » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:06 pm

I had to tell a guy to Go Around on this last trip.

It's a lot harder to do than you might think. And it wasn't a case of whether the approach was slightly unstable.....this was totally F-ed up beyond all recognition. Nighttime complex visual to a short runway and he wasn't given a very good setup by TRACON. Still, even at my subtle prompt of "looks like we might be a tad high", we still found ourselves at 6000 ft 10 miles out. There just seemed to be no sense of urgency and by 5 miles I knew there was no hope and started envisioning touching 5000 ft down the runway and skidding off the end into the water. A mile out we were still around 900 ft and I became convinced from his silence that if I didn't say anything, he was going to give it a go. I said "How 'bout we Go around" and with no argument from him, he performed a nice rejected landing, came around and landed nicely. We would have gone over the threshold at about 300 ft agl.

Still, it was the first day of the trip and we hadn't flown together before. We had similar backgrounds and we were in that first day "getting to know you" process and I really wanted to like him because we had 3 more days together. I knew damn well it was a big ego blow for him to be told to Go Around and now we'd have that sitting there like a 500lb gorilla in the cockpit for the rest of the trip. It was the last leg of the day and as we were waiting on the curb for the hotel van, he was very apologetic, but I'm sure he was thinking "this guy's an ass for not trusting me". I was telling him not to worry about it, but I was thinking "why did he put me in this position by not even ackowledging that this approach wasn't going well?". In the end the trip went fine and we had a chance to grab a beer on one of the layovers. I certainly don't regret calling for the Go Around and had done it before, but that pilot was a new hire just off IOE and it just didn't seem the same. The cockpit has a strange dynamic with a lot of testosterone and ego and as silly as it might seem, I can see where some things might go unsaid when somebody really needs to speak up. That's all the more reason I think it's important for me to recognize when I'm screwing up and openly admit it to the other pilot because it fosters an environment where he can more easily call my attention to something important.

Still, it's never easy to essentially tell somebody......Get your head out of your ass and do this over.

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ocelot
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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby ocelot » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:42 am

Don't forget that on his side he may have also been unwilling to suggest it himself, for fear of looking bad or even just for fear that because you hadn't said anything it would reflect badly on you.

Seems much more likely to me than that he didn't realize the approach wasn't viable, actually.

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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby Dummy Pilot » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:39 pm

ocelot wrote:Don't forget that on his side he may have also been unwilling to suggest it himself, for fear of looking bad or even just for fear that because you hadn't said anything it would reflect badly on you.


Well, I can see his continuing the approach for fear of looking bad...in fact, I rlated a story from my past where I continued a terrbile appraoch the whole while wishing the Captain would just tell me to Go Around. It was to KPIT in a rough storm with IMC to mins. I was all over the glidepath getting a 'Sink Rate' call at one point. the irony is that I pulled it together at the end and came out at mins to a beatiful touchdown. I had passengers saying 'great landing' just on the touchdown alone, but it was a terribly unstable approach and looking back I wish the Captain had put me out of my misery because In the heat of battle, I obviously didn't have the wherewithall to call it quits

Seems much more likely to me than that he didn't realize the approach wasn't viable, actually.


I can't say for sure....interestingly, the two guys that I had to tell 'Go Around' to were both Fighter guys...in fact, both were still actively flying them inthe Reserves and both were extremely high and seemed convinced they could fix it. I'm wondering if they're just used to the more maneuverable platform of a Fighter vs Transport aircraft.

OldSowBreath
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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby OldSowBreath » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:04 pm

Dumb question, but is a go around written up on a guy's record, or on any log?

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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:04 pm

What, no parlor talk from 3BS & Co?
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Dummy Pilot
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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby Dummy Pilot » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:25 pm

OldSowBreath wrote:Dumb question, but is a go around written up on a guy's record, or on any log?



Actually, it's not a dumb question, and in fact the Pilot Flying asked me if we had to write it up. I knew from our Ops Manual that there are a number of required reports for various types of operational events/incidents, but only a Go Around caused by a mechanical problem requires a write-up. If you think about it, the company is constantly preaching not to land out of unstable approachs and therefore it would be counterproductive to in any way attach a stigma to Going Around when you're simply not in a position to land.

Now there are the two anonymous programs, ASAP and FOQA. I considered an ASAP report, but really didn't see the SAFETY issue... I mean you really can't write up every time you have a bad landing or practice poor technique. The folks in the FOQA department may review it, but since all crew info is deidentified, I'll never kknow it. The FOQA team has been really hot about unstable approachs recently publishing some very interesting 3-D graphics in the crew rooms of some real life unstable arrivals on the various fleets, but their beef has been with crews that have attempted to land out of the unstable approach, not those who decide to go around.

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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby OldSowBreath » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:45 pm

Thanks, DP, that makes sense about not wanting a write-up affecting the decision.

AndyToop
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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby AndyToop » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:03 pm

So in 3 months when you find you're running a trip with this guy again will this incident affect how you brief the approach and potential for a go around?

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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby Sickbag » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:34 pm

I call this a wrong decision Dp.

You should of let him try to land; if you didn't die in a ball of flames think of all the awkwardness you could of avoided, and if you did crash ;still no awkward moments...

Its a win-win if you really think about it.
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within 18 months...

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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby Not_Karl » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:54 pm

Sickbag wrote:I call this a wrong decision Dp.

You should of let him try to land; if you didn't die in a ball of flames think of all the awkwardness you could of avoided, and if you did crash ;still no awkward moments...

Its a win-win if you really think about it.

Almost.
There is a small chance of a non-fatal but highly awkward overrun. And think of the awkwardness if the pilots survive but passengers did die.
And even if nobody survives, we will almost certainly miss our beloved Dummy.
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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby Sickbag » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:12 pm

Not_Karl wrote:Almost.
There is a small chance of a non-fatal but highly awkward overrun. And think of the awkwardness if the pilots survive but passengers did die.
And even if nobody survives, we will almost certainly miss our beloved Dummy.



I think you under rate DP's flying skills.
He's far too good a pilot to accidentally survive a plane crash.
TRUMP: in-presidency structural break-up
within 18 months...

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ocelot
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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby ocelot » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:16 pm

Dummy Pilot wrote:The FOQA team has been really hot about unstable approachs recently publishing some very interesting 3-D graphics in the crew rooms of some real life unstable arrivals on the various fleets,


I don't suppose us peons get to see those?

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Dummy Pilot
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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby Dummy Pilot » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:21 pm

ocelot wrote:I don't suppose us peons get to see those?



No, you don't....but the up side, is that because of the so called "self reporting" programs such as FOQA and ASAP, the folks in the Safety department get to see a whole slew of info on trends and incidents that they never knew existed......or they thought they maybe existed but now had confirmation. We get a regular newsletter of interesting ASAP/FOQA data and one of the recent ones mentioned that in the past year, the ASAP team recieved 12,000 ASAP reports.....that's basically one report for every single pilot....an in depth look into thousands of incidents that they never had any clue about. And yet both the FAA and managememt are constantly trying to screw up these programs by misusing the data for disciplinary reasons.

Anyway, on the 'Unstable Approach' data, it was found that in almost every case, these were occurring at low density usage airports where ATC was often clearing pilots from every which direction for Visual Approaches (i.e. instead of nice long 10-15 mile vectored finals that you might get at a busy airport, planes at these smaller fields were being asked to call the field in sight and then given clearance for a Visual while on downwind or dogleg). Pilots with the egos that they have don't want to be seen as wimps who need to give themselves a set-up for nice straight like they're used to, so they make a nice tight base turn or head sthraight for a 1500 ft final, often inside the normal marker and find themselves in an unfamiliar spot while too fast and unconfigured. The day I became a Captain, whenever I was nonflying pilot and we got cleared for a Visual, the first thing I did was turn to the F/O and say "you set up for this however you want...and if you think I will be impressed by you making the tightest patern you can fly, I won't". The reason I say that is because I know that I'm a pussy when flying and I'lll always set up for outside the marker even if it costs a few pounds more gas or I've got Southwest airlines behind me screaming to tighten it up.

In any event, this particular FOQA data ended up being used for this 'Pilot Lounge' wall info, but for a couple of the most egregious airports, the airport Jepp page was changed as well with an added note (as I recall, KJAX was the leader with the downwind visuals to 25 being constantly unstable) so the data does make it into procedural changes.

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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby 3WE » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:10 am

flyboy2548m wrote:What, no parlor talk from 3BS & Co?


What, there's activity in the Waldo Pepper forum?
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Re: How bout we Go Around

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon May 18, 2015 10:28 pm

Andresen wrote:how bout them packers, favres going to show Pats D a lil thing called, respecting ur elders


Are you into nair?
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Not_Karl
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Re: How bout we Go Around

Postby Not_Karl » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:14 pm

GeraldHen wrote:Sprinkle a perimeter of cornmeal around your home. The ants will be attracted to it and eat. When they ingest it, theyll will explode. Corn expands. eliminates problem AND provides entertainment. Win/Win

Are you into liveries?
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby PurduePilot » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:45 pm

Not_Karl wrote:
Sickbag wrote:I call this a wrong decision Dp.

You should of let him try to land; if you didn't die in a ball of flames think of all the awkwardness you could of avoided, and if you did crash ;still no awkward moments...

Its a win-win if you really think about it.

Almost.
There is a small chance of a non-fatal but highly awkward overrun. And think of the awkwardness if the pilots survive but passengers did die.
And even if nobody survives, we will almost certainly miss our beloved Dummy.

Hit something hard--I don't want to limp away from this one!

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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby Not_Karl » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:17 am

PurduePilot wrote:Hit something hard--I don't want to limp away from this one!

Indeed.
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.

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3WE
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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby 3WE » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:06 am

flyboy2548m, back on March 18, 2011, wrote:What, no parlor talk from 3BS & Co?


Due to a slight increase in go-around discussion and Not_Karl's interest in the subject, I thought this thread deserved a bump and the Parlour talk Flyboy inquired about 2011.18.03...

Dummy's original post is more about touchy-feeling human interactions of having to tell a fairly intelligent and fairly competent fellow pilot, "Um dude, I'm not DIRECTLY ordering you to go around just yet, but maybe in 30 more seconds, the CVR will contain the wording "My plane" and then your feelings WILL be hurt" and perhaps there will even be paperwork.

Anyway, for fun, I thought I'd throw out that I had encountered three go-arounds as a passenger.

Missed approach in hard IMC in a J-31 (successful break out on second ILS)
Go-Around in a TWA MD-80 at Flyover when someone didn't do something in time.
Go-Around in a Continental? MD-80 at IAH when another someone didn't do something in time.

I've also witnessed maybe five go-arounds at Flyover (four back in the olden days), and the downright laughable one this spring when a Southwest 737 ran down a Cape Air Cessna twin as it rolled out a good long way to get past the slightly congested? ramp area.

...And, of course done them in light planes too.

Anyway- survived them all and witnessed no air disasters. Not too many underslung engines, and generally good weather. Leaving us with it's no big deal OR it's a very critical, risk-laden operation, or some elusive gray area in-between. Further discussion anyone?
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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Not_Karl
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Re: How 'bout we Go Around?

Postby Not_Karl » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:26 am

3WE wrote:Anyway- survived them all and witnessed no air disasters.

Impossible!
Junior Janitor, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Environmental Poisoning Assurance department.

"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.


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