Railroad Thread
Moderators: FrankM, el, Dmmoore
Re: Railroad Thread
Ban all passenger trains...and I'm saying that in a defeatist tone of voice as opposed to smart alek.
If we were to apply the airline's standards of "insane safety" to the fact that we have pretty darn significant, regular, predictable rate of car/truck vs. train crashes, and throw in this effort to have faster Amtrak trains....60 MPH, 80 MPH, 100 MPH, 120 MPH (draw the line wherever)...
...if we were to apply those standards, passenger tracks need to be elevated, fenced off, have no road crossings at all whatsoever anywhere (yeah, sure the occasional one with a significant speed restriction for the train and a few other common sense exceptions).
Yeah, sure, it's just money and I'm sure that Bernie or Hillary or Donald will drop a few billion to fix it all.
In the meantime, it's great legroom, much nicer windows than on a CRJ, probably safer than driving, but one SLOW way to cross Los Estados Unidos...
...pretty much a first-world problem that it will smack the occasional car or truck (or someone will snag the tracks on a not-so-official grade crossing in the boonies).
If we were to apply the airline's standards of "insane safety" to the fact that we have pretty darn significant, regular, predictable rate of car/truck vs. train crashes, and throw in this effort to have faster Amtrak trains....60 MPH, 80 MPH, 100 MPH, 120 MPH (draw the line wherever)...
...if we were to apply those standards, passenger tracks need to be elevated, fenced off, have no road crossings at all whatsoever anywhere (yeah, sure the occasional one with a significant speed restriction for the train and a few other common sense exceptions).
Yeah, sure, it's just money and I'm sure that Bernie or Hillary or Donald will drop a few billion to fix it all.
In the meantime, it's great legroom, much nicer windows than on a CRJ, probably safer than driving, but one SLOW way to cross Los Estados Unidos...
...pretty much a first-world problem that it will smack the occasional car or truck (or someone will snag the tracks on a not-so-official grade crossing in the boonies).
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
Re: Railroad Thread
New tunnel christened by bizarre 'demonic' ceremony
I'm disappointed in the Swiss!
Excerpt:
I'm disappointed in the Swiss!
Excerpt:
http://www.wnd.com/2016/06/new-tunnel-c ... -ceremony/The world’s longest and deepest rail tunnel was unveiled with a bizarre ceremony featuring a goat-man who dies and is resurrected, women simulating sex with each other and drone-like human workers marching to a rhythmic drum beat.
The Gotthard Base Tunnel was christened in Switzerland with male and female workers wearing orange jumpsuits and marching robotically like soldiers obeying their commands.
Young men and women appear dressed in white underwear, while two of the women engage in simulated lesbian sex. These individuals represent the masses who will ride the trains through the tunnel.
Re: Railroad Thread
Strange.
Can't blame Sickbag...goats involved, not_donkeys.
Can't blame Sickbag...goats involved, not_donkeys.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
Total Train Disaster Rate
First class drivel / parlour talk here.
I've been halfway familiar with a 5-mile stretch of railroad track for about 50 years.
Today, the fifth derailment occurred since I've been 'following' it...thinking in terms of stats, it sure seems like a lot of derailments.
It's a fairly busy track...technically it's single track but the passing sidings are dense and long (~5 miles between them and some of them are 5 miles long)...25 to 30 trains a day.
I recall the first (in the late 60's) as being quite spectacular...lots of accordioned freight cars with some box cars piled up on top.
Two were at a grade crossing- within a year (probably shared some mechanism).
One was on a bridge over a small river. That was quite spectacular as it took out the bridge, and the railroad undertook about a 15 year slow upgrade to the bridge in question.
Todays was non-remarkable, but there's quite the clean up effort.
Bottom line: seems like a pretty high accident rate...and the proverbial question if "we" need to change some things.
If anyone really cares, this is the approximate mid point of the area I'm describing 36.927675° -89.844089°
I've been halfway familiar with a 5-mile stretch of railroad track for about 50 years.
Today, the fifth derailment occurred since I've been 'following' it...thinking in terms of stats, it sure seems like a lot of derailments.
It's a fairly busy track...technically it's single track but the passing sidings are dense and long (~5 miles between them and some of them are 5 miles long)...25 to 30 trains a day.
I recall the first (in the late 60's) as being quite spectacular...lots of accordioned freight cars with some box cars piled up on top.
Two were at a grade crossing- within a year (probably shared some mechanism).
One was on a bridge over a small river. That was quite spectacular as it took out the bridge, and the railroad undertook about a 15 year slow upgrade to the bridge in question.
Todays was non-remarkable, but there's quite the clean up effort.
Bottom line: seems like a pretty high accident rate...and the proverbial question if "we" need to change some things.
If anyone really cares, this is the approximate mid point of the area I'm describing 36.927675° -89.844089°
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
Re: Railroad Thread
Unrelatedly, any thoughts on the wreck in Italy a couple weeks back? I admit my first thought was "do they still really not know how to work block signals after nearly 150 years?"
- Thunder Down Under
- Posts: 266
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- Location: In the Bush
Re: Railroad Thread
I have given this some thought. Along with the crash in Germany. Surely with today's technologies, interlocking, derailers etc. there should be no two trains in a section at any given time. Sometimes the old technology is best, why try and invent the wheel?Unrelatedly, any thoughts on the wreck in Italy a couple weeks back? I admit my first thought was "do they still really not know how to work block signals after nearly 150 years?"
TDU
I don't have a plan........therefore nothing can go wrong.....
Re: Railroad Thread
The following article written by a retired railroad operating officer discusses the shortcomings of various train control systems. Here is the heart of the matter for many existing European secondary lines not yet equipped with advanced train control systems:
".... human operators communicating the condition of the block to each other; both systems convey authority to enter the block to the trains without conveying any information regarding what is actually happening in the block itself, in the field, to the trains, rather than communicating the perception of what is happening by the office. "
If I recall correctly in the recent German collision, the control operator [the guy who gives permission for a train to proceed] was found to have been playing a video game at the time.
http://ten90solutions.com/it_cant_happen_there
In the US all major routes (including those with passenger service and heavier freight traffic) we have at least automatic block signals if not centralized traffic control. After a 2008 head on collision in Southern California (where the engineer or driver was texting and did not obey a stop signal) congress mandated Positive Train Control - as discussed in the above article. It will cost about $10 Billion USD when it is all done - nearly all of it funded by individual railroads.
".... human operators communicating the condition of the block to each other; both systems convey authority to enter the block to the trains without conveying any information regarding what is actually happening in the block itself, in the field, to the trains, rather than communicating the perception of what is happening by the office. "
If I recall correctly in the recent German collision, the control operator [the guy who gives permission for a train to proceed] was found to have been playing a video game at the time.
http://ten90solutions.com/it_cant_happen_there
In the US all major routes (including those with passenger service and heavier freight traffic) we have at least automatic block signals if not centralized traffic control. After a 2008 head on collision in Southern California (where the engineer or driver was texting and did not obey a stop signal) congress mandated Positive Train Control - as discussed in the above article. It will cost about $10 Billion USD when it is all done - nearly all of it funded by individual railroads.
Re: Railroad Thread
For the benefit of Thunder Down Under, here is a video about Australian Truck Trains and an interesting transporter.
https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/ ... kcM?rel=0&
https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/ ... kcM?rel=0&
- Thunder Down Under
- Posts: 266
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- Location: In the Bush
Re: Railroad Thread
Some big loads there.
TDU
TDU
I don't have a plan........therefore nothing can go wrong.....
Re: Railroad Thread
I... don't quite follow that sentence. Is it trying to say that the system depends on the controller maintaining SA and has no way of preventing garbage-in-garbage-out if this slips?".... human operators communicating the condition of the block to each other; both systems convey authority to enter the block to the trains without conveying any information regarding what is actually happening in the block itself, in the field, to the trains, rather than communicating the perception of what is happening by the office. "
Re: Railroad Thread
and here is the "interesting transporter" being used in a recent developmentFor the benefit of Thunder Down Under, here is a video about Australian Truck Trains and an interesting transporter.
https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/ ... kcM?rel=0&
https://www.instagram.com/p/BIrzM5pAQOR/
Re: Railroad Thread
Well, at least the carryon luggage was removed first.
Regarding the train control system question, the more modern "vital" systems do look to see if the route is clear and the control operators do not "give" a train a clear signal; rather the control operator "asks" the system in the field if the route is clear, the switches are lined and only then the signal is cleared. The places where we've seen these head on collisions are generally older systems where humans in towers communicate with each other to see if one train has passed and another can be allowed to proceed. I recall reading that in the German collision the control operator was fooling with a personal electronic device and forgot about an opposing train when manually giving the signal to proceed.
Regarding the train control system question, the more modern "vital" systems do look to see if the route is clear and the control operators do not "give" a train a clear signal; rather the control operator "asks" the system in the field if the route is clear, the switches are lined and only then the signal is cleared. The places where we've seen these head on collisions are generally older systems where humans in towers communicate with each other to see if one train has passed and another can be allowed to proceed. I recall reading that in the German collision the control operator was fooling with a personal electronic device and forgot about an opposing train when manually giving the signal to proceed.
Re: Railroad Thread
You can do so many cool things with a VHF scanner. Listen to ATC or railroad communication.I... don't quite follow that sentence. Is it trying to say that the system depends on the controller maintaining SA and has no way of preventing garbage-in-garbage-out if this slips?".... human operators communicating the condition of the block to each other; both systems convey authority to enter the block to the trains without conveying any information regarding what is actually happening in the block itself, in the field, to the trains, rather than communicating the perception of what is happening by the office. "
After hearing some 'orders', I get it. It's full of all sorts of detailed intricate STUFF, and of course near-verbatim read-backs, but you sometimes don't hear any plain language explanations along with it.
I am a bit serious when I razz Evan for his huge love of acronyms and big words to the exclusion of plain language.
UP-2387 is cleared from MP 121.23 to MP 153.29 Track one to track one, Limit 35 MPH, dispatcher name Tom Foolery, Date and time August 6, 2016, 14:53...
Could that not be- Cleared from MP 121 to 153, there are no other trains in the vicinity....Or Cleared from MP 121 to 153, anticipate stopping for a Northbound train afterwards?....
I should clarify that sometimes additional information is included in these clearances, but conversely, a WHOLE LOT of effort is spent on legal, blame-game box checking...and what's wrong with a little bit of plain language clarity?
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
Re: Railroad Thread
ok, I think I see... but still, don't the operators have any kind of situation board? Even something with wooden pegs to move around would prevent these problems...Regarding the train control system question, the more modern "vital" systems do look to see if the route is clear and the control operators do not "give" a train a clear signal; rather the control operator "asks" the system in the field if the route is clear, the switches are lined and only then the signal is cleared. The places where we've seen these head on collisions are generally older systems where humans in towers communicate with each other to see if one train has passed and another can be allowed to proceed. I recall reading that in the German collision the control operator was fooling with a personal electronic device and forgot about an opposing train when manually giving the signal to proceed.
- Thunder Down Under
- Posts: 266
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Re: Railroad Thread
Then there was the old 'Ticket & Staff/Tablet System'.
Issue a 'Proceed' ticket and view the 'Staff/Tablet. No Ticket/Staff. No Go.
TDU
Issue a 'Proceed' ticket and view the 'Staff/Tablet. No Ticket/Staff. No Go.
TDU
I don't have a plan........therefore nothing can go wrong.....
Re: Railroad Thread
Hopefully not geo-blocked, check out the damage to the train tracks from some recent earthquakes and resultant slips in this part of the world http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/kaikour ... 2016111413
- flyboy2548m
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Re: Railroad Thread
THAT's going to be paperwork...
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
-TeeVee, one of America's finest legal minds.
- Ancient Mariner
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Re: Railroad Thread
I have travelled by train. Ollantaytambo to Machu Picchu. Peru Rail. Very slow, very interesting. One of them Vista things with windows in the roof. Good view of the mountains. Even had a fashion show on return.
Per
Per
- Not_Karl
- Previously banned for not socially distancing
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- Location: Bona Nitogena y otra gaso, Argentina
Re: Railroad Thread
I personally prefer 7, but it is still better than 8, 8.1 and 10 nonetheless.One of them Vista things
International Ban ALL Aeroplanies Association, founder and president.
"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.
"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.
Transportation Safety Statistics
Just heard an interesting sound-byte/bullet point:
"As a train conductor/engineer, you can expect to kill 5 people in the course of a normal career"
I thought that at some other time, it was more like the grand average was about 1 killed in the course of a career.
No interest in making 1:1 parallels with the aviation industry, but it's still interesting in the compare/contrast arena.
For the sake of argument, one has even more backing to declare, "Ban all trains!".
"As a train conductor/engineer, you can expect to kill 5 people in the course of a normal career"
I thought that at some other time, it was more like the grand average was about 1 killed in the course of a career.
No interest in making 1:1 parallels with the aviation industry, but it's still interesting in the compare/contrast arena.
For the sake of argument, one has even more backing to declare, "Ban all trains!".
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
- Not_Karl
- Previously banned for not socially distancing
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- Location: Bona Nitogena y otra gaso, Argentina
Re: Transportation Safety Statistics
Is there any reward or recognition if you kill more than 5, or does it only give you bragging rights?"As a train conductor/engineer, you can expect to kill 5 people in the course of a normal career"
They're getting more efficient.I thought that at some other time, it was more like the grand average was about 1 killed in the course of a career.
International Ban ALL Aeroplanies Association, founder and president.
"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.
"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.
Re: Transportation Safety Statistics
Indeed.They're getting more efficient.I thought that at some other time, it was more like the grand average was about 1 killed in the course of a career.
El Presidente wishes us to be more efficient.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
Cowboy Train Engineers
It would appear that going 80 in a 30 mph zone is a key factor in the 12/18/2017 Amtrak crash in the NW US.
Again, we fail at what seems to be extremely simple procedures and fundamentals.
Ban all motor transport, or issue a PR statement and initiate a retraining effort with a spiffy, impactful name!
Again, we fail at what seems to be extremely simple procedures and fundamentals.
Ban all motor transport, or issue a PR statement and initiate a retraining effort with a spiffy, impactful name!
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.
- Not_Karl
- Previously banned for not socially distancing
- Posts: 4192
- Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:12 pm
- Location: Bona Nitogena y otra gaso, Argentina
Re: Cowboy Train Engineers
CONCUR.Ban all motor transport
I blame TeeVee.
International Ban ALL Aeroplanies Association, founder and president.
"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.
"I think, based on the types of aircraft listed, you're pretty much guaranteed a fiery death."
- Contemporary Poet flyboy2548m to a Foffie.
Re: Cowboy Train Engineers
I suggest "Go slower and live".initiate a retraining effort with a spiffy, impactful name!
HR consultant, Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc.
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