An-148 down

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Rabbi O'Genius
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An-148 down

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:47 pm

Shortly after take off from Moscow.
62 pax. No survivors expected.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43024235
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Not_Karl
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Re: An-148 down

Postby Not_Karl » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:05 pm

Reportedly a mid-air collision with a helicopter. AVHerald linky.
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KPryor
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Re: An-148 down

Postby KPryor » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:03 pm

Now they're saying no helicopter.
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flyboy2548m
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Re: An-148 down

Postby flyboy2548m » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:35 pm

Holy Hydraulics, Officer Pryor is back!
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KPryor
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Re: An-148 down

Postby KPryor » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:53 pm

Actually, it's Retired Officer Pryor! I retired almost 2 years ago, so I'm just Grandpa Pryor now LOL.
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Rabbi O'Genius
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Re: An-148 down

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:23 pm

Shades of AF 447...........
(Sensor icing suspected)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43048921
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3WE
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Re: An-148 down

Postby 3WE » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:10 pm

Shades of AF 447...........
(Sensor icing suspected)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43048921
Counter to AF, I read of a “dive”?!?!

I guess it could be an attempt to gain speed.
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Rabbi O'Genius
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Re: An-148 down

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:53 pm


Counter to AF, I read of a “dive”?!?!

I guess it could be an attempt to gain speed.
If the airspeed probe is blocked and reading close to zero it would certainly make more sense than pulling up relentlessly.....
......never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. – John Donne

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Gabriel
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Re: An-148 down

Postby Gabriel » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:04 am

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b4cb236&opt=0
In the afternoon of Feb 13th 2018 the MAK reported, that decoding of the FDR data has been completed. Preliminary analysis shows, that the pitot heatings for all three pitot probes were off while the pitot heatings had been turned on prior to departure on the previous 15 flights. About 2:30 minutes after becoming airborne a special situation developed at about 1300 meters of height and a speed of 465-470 kph (250 KIAS) when a disagreement between the speed readings #1 and #3 developed with the speed reading #2 not registering, #1 was showing about 30kph (15 knots) more than #3, an according message was issued. No significant altitude deviations between the pitot systems were noticed. At about 2000 meters height speed reading #1 began to reduce while #3 increased, another speed disagree message was issued. The crew disconnected the autopilot and continued in manual control. Speed readings from #3 reached 540-560 kph (290-300 KIAS), #1 speed readings continued to decrease. 50 seconds after the autopilot was disconnected the aircraft experienced vertical loads between 0.5 and 1.5G, the #1 speed reading reached 0, the #3 began to decrease reaching 200 kph (108 KIAS), the aircraft pitched down to about 30-35 degrees below horizont, the vertical load was 0G. Before collision with the ground #3 speed readings began to rapidly increase reaching 800 kph (432 KIAS) just before impact, #1 speed readings remained at 0. The pitch angle remained at 30 degrees below horizont until impact, 5 seconds prior to impact a right bank of 25 degrees developed. The MAK wrote: "A preliminary analysis of the recorded information, as well as an analysis of similar cases that occurred in the past, suggest that the development of a special situation in the flight could be caused by incorrect data on the flight speed on the pilots indicators, which in turn was apparently due to icing of the pitot probes when the heating systems are off."

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Re: An-148 down

Postby elaw » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:11 pm

One wonders what might have happened if the airspeed disagreement warning (assuming it's on a video screen or something and thus changeable) had "CHK PITOT HEAT" appended to it.
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3WE
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Re: An-148 down

Postby 3WE » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:25 pm

From Gabeee's post: a special situation developed at about 1300 meters...suggest that the development of a special situation in the flight

I am wondering about the wording "special situation".

It's probably just a 'lost in translation' thing...

HOWEVER

"Special situation" almost sounds like the computer went bezerk (reference Air France again) and was doing weird things.

While iced up pitot tubes are not a 'normal' flight condition, I seem to recall that we get LOTS of training on that in the single engine world as some of our aircraft do not have a heated pitot tube...

The business that if you are climbing in a healthy matter AND your airspeed is increasing (due to reducing 'static' pressure)...YOU BETTER WATCH OUT AND BE CAREFUL! (Along with doing all the Evan memory stuff- as well as staying within robust power and attitudes).

Trying to say that it ain't all that "special" in fact, it's pretty damn "common" when flying in cold clouds with the pitot heat off...not "special" at all (depending on your context).

Translation, or some FMS computer struggled with a "special situation"?
Last edited by 3WE on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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3WE
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Re: An-148 down

Postby 3WE » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:29 pm

One wonders what might have happened if the airspeed disagreement warning (assuming it's on a video screen or something and thus changeable) had "CHK PITOT HEAT" appended to it.
Concur.

Also, in the realm of 'outsider advice' why in the hell is there even an off switch? I guess it's a good idea on a 172 where the loss of the alternator on the #1 engine has bad implications for battery life which can be important for night IMC...but why not just leave the dang thing on?

(Evan want's it to be automatic, but then the thermostat fails (or the thermostat STATUS monitor fails) and you have the distraction factor....)
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KPryor
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Re: An-148 down

Postby KPryor » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:34 pm

One wonders what might have happened if the airspeed disagreement warning (assuming it's on a video screen or something and thus changeable) had "CHK PITOT HEAT" appended to it.
Concur.

Also, in the realm of 'outsider advice' why in the hell is there even an off switch? I guess it's a good idea on a 172 where the loss of the alternator on the #1 engine has bad implications for battery life which can be important for night IMC...but why not just leave the dang thing on?

(Evan want's it to be automatic, but then the thermostat fails (or the thermostat STATUS monitor fails) and you have the distraction factor....)
As a non-pilot, though going through an online ground school for fun, I have also wondered why anyone ever intentionally flies without the pitot heat on. I'm assuming there's a good reason, but I haven't seen it thus far.
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Re: An-148 down

Postby flyboy2548m » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:40 pm

Also, in the realm of 'outsider advice' why in the hell is there even an off switch? I guess it's a good idea on a 172 where the loss of the alternator on the #1 engine has bad implications for battery life which can be important for night IMC...but why not just leave the dang thing on?

(Evan want's it to be automatic, but then the thermostat fails (or the thermostat STATUS monitor fails) and you have the distraction factor....)
On the airliners I have flown it IS automatic. On the CRJ (and the 170 as well, if memory serves) there is an OFF position on the switch, but it's overridden if PSEU senses no WOW. On the 'Bus there is no OFF position, only ON or AUTO.
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3WE
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Re: An-148 down

Postby 3WE » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:33 pm

On the airliners I have flown it IS automatic.
Thank you for that insight. (AND the cool acronyms!)

I guess we still have to ask how that relates to those wonderful Советского airliners that we romanticize about.
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Gabriel
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Re: An-148 down

Postby Gabriel » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:07 am

AND, the cool acronym
Aircraft Nose Down.

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Rabbi O'Genius
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Re: An-148 down

Postby Rabbi O'Genius » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:30 am

AND, the cool acronym

Apparently Necessary Dive
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Not_Karl
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Re: An-148 down

Postby Not_Karl » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:41 am

Thank you for that insight. (AND the cool acronyms!)
If it lands upright (and with the gear extended, hopefully), it senses WOW. If it lands upside down... does it sense MOM?
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3WE
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Re: An-148 down

Postby 3WE » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:24 pm

Thank you for that insight. (AND the cool acronyms!)
If it lands upright (and with the gear extended, hopefully), it senses WOW. If it lands upside down... does it sense MOM?
That’s only type specific for purple airliners.
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Gabriel
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Re: An-148 down

Postby Gabriel » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:03 pm

Thank you for that insight. (AND the cool acronyms!)
If it lands upright (and with the gear extended, hopefully), it senses WOW. If it lands upside down... does it sense MOM?
I heard that they end with the Turbine Inlet Temperature up.


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