The Eidelwiess affair…

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3WE
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Re: The Eidelwiess affair…

Postby 3WE » Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:20 am


***But this: in my opinion, the only thing that makes sense here is that the stick was let go, either accidentally or, possibly, the pilot thought they were already in flight mode, so the airplane would hold the pitch attitude it was at when the stick was let go.***
I have been in full BS-spewing-ass-hat mode on this, but the nose-over just ain’t right for normal flight…and I don’t see a pilot deliberately doing it or “allowing it to go un checked” if they hit the magical wake or shear.

And it looks VERY MUCH like what you describe…let go, oh shit, grab it back and get back to a climb attitude and try not to whack the ground.
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Gabriel
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Re: The Eidelwiess affair…

Postby Gabriel » Fri Apr 12, 2024 2:44 am

It looks like they rotated AFTER they crossed runway 10, so I doubt landing traffic wake was an issue.
But after they hit the ground the vortices move laterally away from each other at a speed of a couple of knots, and can take a few minutes to dissipate, especially in light wind conditions. That is why they are more dangerous when you land behind another airplane in a slight crosswind. The crosswind can cancel the the lateral speed and the vortex can stay on the runway for minutes.
Do "we" know if anyone even landed on rwy 10 about that time?
I don't know one way or the other. It just speculation and just as a possibility. It just reminded me a lot of the Air Morocco case, which looks quite similar to this one (although not identical), and which very likely was caused by the wake turbulence of the airplane that landed on the intersecting runway one or 2 minutes before the Air Morocco take-off. Do you know the case I am talking about?

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Re: The Eidelwiess affair…

Postby Not_Karl » Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:23 am

Do you know the case I am talking about?
In case he doesn't.
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Re: The Eidelwiess affair…

Postby flyboy2548m » Fri Apr 12, 2024 6:09 am

Do you know the case I am talking about?
In case he doesn't.
I'm well-aware, thanks.
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Airbus Whacko Conspiracy Movie, [i]there[/i]

Postby 3WE » Sat Apr 13, 2024 8:56 pm

The conversation takes an interesting detour. I found the movie interesting and JMAHO, making the spoilers absolutely, 100%, altogether, unavailable, seems like a bad idea.

https://youtu.be/FZ5Ht_mhdrI?si=vD6ygmD-luc0zZA7 (Search: Airbus Fatal Flaw)

Not_unlike a nose-over system that no one knows about, connected to one AOA vane.

Of course, I remember hearing about nylon ignition gears in 172s once… really?

/off topic
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Re: Airbus Whacko Conspiracy Movie, [i]there[/i]

Postby Gabriel » Sun Apr 14, 2024 6:00 am

TMAHO, making the spoilers absolutely, 100%, altogether, unavailable, seems like a bad idea.
https://aviation-safety.net/asndb/331082

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Re: Airbus Whacko Conspiracy Movie, [i]there[/i]

Postby 3WE » Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:28 am

Ok, don’t watch the movie.
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Bert and obscure gods...

Postby 3WE » Sun Apr 14, 2024 9:30 pm

Quote = Bert:

I don't know how many type ratings you had in your aviation career. In my case it's been quite a few, but on no type rating I heard the instructor say during the first sim session: "I'm now going to show you how the A320 will kill you". A few minutes later we were dead.
That really makes you wonder if switching to the A320 was the right choice.
Perhaps Bert worships obscure gods, much like flyboy, because he sure is a blasphemer to our god Airbus.

I'd ask flyboy if he felt there was any airbus logic he thought was really wrong, but I believe his response will be: Better cooling on the brakes. (Shit, we're back to braking again).
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To Bert or to Bern't.

Postby Not_Karl » Mon Apr 15, 2024 5:17 am

Perhaps BerNt worships obscure gods, much like flyboy, because he sure is a blasphemer to our god Airbus.
He indeed seems to Not_like Airbusie. We should ask for his opinion on face diapers (and fixed).
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Re: Bert and obscure gods...

Postby flyboy2548m » Mon Apr 15, 2024 7:47 pm


I'd ask flyboy if he felt there was any airbus logic he thought was really wrong, but I believe his response will be: Better cooling on the brakes. (Shit, we're back to braking again).
Better cooling would be nice, but that's not an "Airbus logic issue".
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Re: The Eidelwiess affair…

Postby 3WE » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:47 am

Since you played the “serious” card, I ass-ume you feel Airbus logic generally is ok.

Sure, Boeing guys will crack jokes and it’s probably not_as perfect as Evan thinks it is, AND a pilot must know and understand it well, but the logic generally sound.

Your comments that if things get strange, “reduce it to a 172” have also been noted.

Is that in the ballpark?
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Re: The Eidelwiess affair…

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:33 am


Is that in the ballpark?
Yes.
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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F.A.O.: flyboy

Postby 3WE » Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:44 pm

I hope you know the systems on the A-320 series very well.

Ref: There.
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…and to be serious…

Postby 3WE » Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:38 pm

We have a very plausible theory behind this incident, given by an insider, who lives the dream. (Muchos gracios!)

We established, long ago, that Air Bus (and pretty much every other airliner) is a fatal-logic, did dieding machine.
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Re: F.A.O.: flyboy

Postby flyboy2548m » Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:30 am

I hope you know the systems on the A-320 series very well.
I can only wish...
"Lav sinks on 737 Max are too small"

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Bernt says you’re wrong.

Postby 3WE » Sun Apr 28, 2024 5:05 pm

This is an odd one, for sure. I've watched the video several times now in hopes of getting a clearer view not of the aircraft's attitude but of control surface positioning, specifically if the elevators were ever deflected downwards. The video is not very clear but it does NOT appear that elevators ever went past neutral. It also appears that the nose started coming down four seconds after weight off wheels, which means it is likely that the controls were still in ground mode (I believe this is important, more on why in a second). The wheels come off the ground at 0:49 and the nose starts down at 0:53. Now, Airbus manuals state that controls transition to flight mode approximately five seconds after becoming airborne, so it is possible that they were in flight mode already, but...

But this: in my opinion, the only thing that makes sense here is that the stick was let go, either accidentally or, possibly, the pilot thought they were already in flight mode, so the airplane would hold the pitch attitude it was at when the stick was let go.

The "tailwind at rotation" seems an unlikely explanation to me. The conditions do not seem favorable to windshear of any kind. Advertised winds were either VRB04 or 270/6. It is true that the very concept of VRB04 suggests that the winds could have shifted but I don't see them shifting enough to cause this sort of mayhem. Notice also that in the video there is a clearly seen smoke stack from a nearby industrial facility and the smoke is rising straight up, suggesting there was no wind at all.

I suggest we wait until the FINAL REPORT.
Yes, we should wait for the final report, but I feel like this theory really fits.

It’s great to look at the control surfaces, and all (as you and Bernt did) but, I’m not sere we can count on videos and our perspective to reliably track control surfaces.

IMOAHO, the nose over looks like it came from an input.

No major questions, I transcribed your comment hoping to stir BS.
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