Asiana 744F crash

[David Hilditch]

It seems that an Asiana 747-400F has crashed en route Seoul to Shanghai. Two flightcrew members presumed lost.

[flyboy2548m]

Seems that way.

[Dummy Pilot]

According to one source:

The pilot radioed Chinese air traffic controllers in Shanghai that fire had broken out in the hold and that the plane had to divert to Jeju, a transport ministry official said

Of course there was also this curious bit of news:

Asiana Airlines was in the news last month when two South Korean marines fired rifles at an Asiana plane carrying 119 people.

South Korea's military later apologized, saying the marines mistook the plane for a North Korean military aircraft. The military said it planned to strengthen training so troops can better distinguish civilian planes. Officials said the plane wasn't in range of the rifle fire.

[B77W-QOTS]

HL7604 was the rego of the airframe, delivered new to Asiana 02/2006 so around 5 and half years old.

[B77W-QOTS]

South Korea's military later apologized, saying the marines mistook the plane for a North Korean military aircraft. The military said it planned to strengthen training so troops can better distinguish civilian planes. Officials said the plane wasn't in range of the rifle fire.

It was in the old 'grey' scheme so being mistaken is a possiblity.

[reubee]

Threads with Asian in the title get more interesting banner ads!

[flyboy2548m]

South Korea's military later apologized, saying the marines mistook the plane for a North Korean military aircraft. The military said it planned to strengthen training so troops can better distinguish civilian planes. Officials said the plane wasn't in range of the rifle fire.

It was in the old 'grey' scheme so being mistaken is a possiblity.

Mistaken for what? What do the DPRK have in their military arsenal that resembles a 777?

[B77W-QOTS]

South Korea's military later apologized, saying the marines mistook the plane for a North Korean military aircraft. The military said it planned to strengthen training so troops can better distinguish civilian planes. Officials said the plane wasn't in range of the rifle fire.

It was in the old 'grey' scheme so being mistaken is a possiblity.

Mistaken for what? What do the DPRK have in their military arsenal that resembles a 777?

The United States Navy shot down an Iran Air A300 so anything is possible.

[flyboy2548m]

The United States Navy shot down an Iran Air A300 so anything is possible.

Actually, that A300 diverted to Moneron Island.

[Hazmat]

The United States Navy shot down an Iran Air A300 so anything is possible.

Actually, that A300 diverted to Moneron Island.

I think you're going to have to rethink that one flyboy, you're mixing up events there.

Anyway it seems that a rerun of the UPS emergency with another load of Li-ion batteries in the cargo hold and
a reported cargofire emegency call fro the captain.
http://www.avherald.com/h?article=44062b99&opt=0

South Korea's Transport ministry reported, the Boeing 747-400 freighter was carrying 58 tons of cargo including 0.4 tons of hazardeous materials like Lithium batteries, paint, amino acid solution and synthetic resin. The crew had reported the cargo on fire with Shanghai Center and was diverting to Jeju Airport when it crashed about 70nm west of the Island at 04:12L (19:12Z Jul 27th), 67 minutes after it had taken off Seoul.

[flyboy2548m]

The United States Navy shot down an Iran Air A300 so anything is possible.

Actually, that A300 diverted to Moneron Island.

I think you're going to have to rethink that one flyboy, you're mixing up events there.

Perhaps you might want to look up the definition of sarcasm.

[Dummy Pilot]

I don't know if Lithium batteries will ultimately have anything to do with this accident, but ALPA has been hammering on this issue since 2004 and testified before Congress again this year regarding the subject during the debates for the FAA Reauthorization bill (which is currently tied up in knots)


Here's their 2011 Statement on the subject....

and ALPA's 2010 Statement....

....and their 2009 Statement....etc, etc, etc...

[Hazmat]

Perhaps you might want to look up the definition of sarcasm.

Ok, that one went right over my head.
I forgive myself though.

[flyboy2548m]

I don't know if Lithium batteries will ultimately have anything to do with this accident, but ALPA has been hammering on this issue since 2004 and testified before Congress again this year regarding the subject during the debates for the FAA Reauthorization bill (which is currently tied up in knots)


Here's their 2011 Statement on the subject....

and ALPA's 2010 Statement....

....and their 2009 Statement....etc, etc, etc...

In fact, a certain Capt Scott Stratton (who nowadays is ITS' MEC Chairman) talked about this when I was in his jumpseat on one of FedEx's Grey Ghosts back in August 2001. Nice to know we're no further along.

[Verbal]

I consulted with a certain ISGPOTM on the subject of lithium batteries on airplanes.

There is a school of thought that goes something like this. Pallets of lithium batteries sit out in the sun and get heat soaked. They get loaded in the airplane, and flown from sea level to cabin altitude. The combination of the heat soak followed by the application of a pressure gradiant to the battery casing can cause these things to spark up.

Discuss.

[flyboy2548m]

I consulted with a certain ISGPOTM on the subject of lithium batteries on airplanes.

There is a school of thought that goes something like this. Pallets of lithium batteries sit out in the sun and get heat soaked. They get loaded in the airplane, and flown from sea level to cabin altitude. The combination of the heat soak followed by the application of a pressure gradiant to the battery casing can cause these things to spark up.

Discuss.

Is there any data out there on how much pressure differential these things are supposed to handle?

[Verbal]

Is there any data out there on how much pressure differential these things are supposed to handle?

Speaking as a parlo(u)r talker, I wouldn't guess much. Another possibility is the temperature differential. In the cargo hold, the ambient temperature is lower than the heat-soaked core of the battery, so the battery body has a temperature gradient and associated thermal strains.

[flyboy2548m]

Is there any data out there on how much pressure differential these things are supposed to handle?

Speaking as a parlo(u)r talker, I wouldn't guess much. Another possibility is the temperature differential. In the cargo hold, the ambient temperature is lower than the heat-soaked core of the battery, so the battery body has a temperature gradient and associated thermal strains.

There is a video out there of a laptop catching fire while being plugged into an outlet at LAX. Ostensibly, the pack got overcharged and things got interesting. With respect to the pallet theory, I imagine these things get shipped in some kind of packaging and thus don't get exposed to direct sunlight and without being connected to a charger I can't imagine they would get all that hot, but who knows?

[Ancient Mariner]

Is there any data out there on how much pressure differential these things are supposed to handle?

Speaking as a parlo(u)r talker, I wouldn't guess much. Another possibility is the temperature differential. In the cargo hold, the ambient temperature is lower than the heat-soaked core of the battery, so the battery body has a temperature gradient and associated thermal strains.

There is a video out there of a laptop catching fire while being plugged into an outlet at LAX. Ostensibly, the pack got overcharged and things got interesting. With respect to the pallet theory, I imagine these things get shipped in some kind of packaging and thus don't get exposed to direct sunlight and without being connected to a charger I can't imagine they would get all that hot, but who knows?

I've had them go bang in their original heavy duty plastic tubes with screw on cap. No charging, just stored on a shelf. I don't trust those things.
Per

[Not_Karl]

There is a video out there of a laptop catching fire while being plugged into an outlet at LAX.

A "little" problem with Sony batteries.
From Wikipedia:

Laptop batteries dysfunction
In April 2006, a Sony laptop battery exploded in Japan and caught fire. A Japanese couple in Tokyo sued both Sony and Apple Japan for over ¥2 million (US$16,700) regarding the incident. The suit argues that the man suffered burns on his finger when the battery burst into flames while being used, and his wife had to be treated for mental distress due to the incident.[29]
On 14 August 2006, Sony and Dell admitted to major flaws in several Sony batteries that could result in the battery overheating and catching fire. As a result they recalled over 4.1 million laptop batteries in the largest computer-related recall to that point in history. The cost of this recall was shared between Dell and Sony. Dell also confirmed that one of its laptops caught fire in Illinois.[30][31] This recall also prompted Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry to order the companies to investigate the troubles with the batteries. The ministry said that Sony must have reported on their findings and drawn up a plan to prevent future problems by the end of August, or face a fine under consumer safety laws.[32] On 23 September 2006, Sony announced its investigation[33] of a Lenovo ThinkPad T43 laptop which overheated and caught fire in the Los Angeles International Airport on 16 September, an incident that was confirmed by Lenovo.
On 28 September 2006, Sony announced a global battery exchange program in response to growing consumer concerns.[34] Acer, Apple Computer, Dell, Fujitsu, IBM, Lenovo, Hewlett-Packard, and Toshiba all recalled Sony laptop batteries.[35] It was also reported that Fujitsu, Toshiba, and Hitachi were considering the possibility of seeking compensation from Sony over the battery recalls.[36]
A Japanese newspaper, Yomiuri Shimbun, reported that Sony was aware of faults in its notebook PC batteries in December 2005 but failed to fully study the problem.

[flyboy2548m]

I've had them go bang in their original heavy duty plastic tubes with screw on cap. No charging, just stored on a shelf. I don't trust those things.
Per

That's cheerful news.

[capslock]

what kind of original plastic tubes were those?

[ZeroAltitude]

..,. With respect to the pallet theory, I imagine these things get shipped in some kind of packaging and thus don't get exposed to direct sunlight and without being connected to a charger I can't imagine they would get all that hot, but who knows?

I would guess one single battery that develops an internal short circuit due to a manufacturing fault and that is stored somewhere on the pallet would be enough to let the whole pallet of batteries go bang.

[Ancient Mariner]

what kind of original plastic tubes were those?

Those were SART replacement batteries in thick heavy duty waterproof plastic tubes with sealed screw on caps. The pressure caused by the chemical reaction shot the cap across the rom and made serious dents in solid steel shelfs. The whole office was full of soot and the smell lingered for months. The battery was returned to the manufacturer, no short circuit. Those things are unstable by design, sorry flyboy.
Per

[OldSowBreath]

Not relevant to anything, so I bring it up: I went to the store to get a new lithium battery for my camera, and took the old, dead one along to make sure I got the right size. At the checkout counter, I felt this burning in my thigh and looking down saw smoke coming out of my jeans pocket. The dead battery had come into contact with change in my pocket and ignited.