Gender and flying a thin aluminum tube at 500 MPH

[3WE]

1)...remarks of that type insult/demean people quite broadly...

2)...PMS (or whatever) obviously apply to only a handful of women...Not as many as you might think...

3)...It doesn't help that there's a long history of sexist/misogynistic and harassing comments being used to exclude women from men-only social contexts...

4)...If you want to talk about gender politics, I think the Political Discussion Forum is the place...

It's comments 4 and 2 (in that order) that I can't let slide.

I hate politics and I love science. PMS is biology, not politics- so no- this discussion does not belong there. The question- "Can body aches affect your ability to fly?" is a valid one. This discussion belongs here- aviation safety.

Your statement that it only applies to a handful of women... WOW- that is a first class political statement with nothing to do with scientific fact.

Before you proceed further- I'd suggest consulting the great source of all fact and knowledge, Wikipeida: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premenstrual_syndrome.

PMS is estimated to affect 3 to 30% of women- with 80% reporting at least some discomfort. Even with the 3% estimate, that's no "handful".

I'm going to be rarely serious here AND start with my "politically correct disclaimer" Indeed, men can suffer from headaches, body aches, and all sorts of illnesses that can affect their ability to focus on operating a plane. In fact, you are supposed to voluntarily remove yourself when you are not fit to fly. If a woman has aches and significant distractions she should also remove herself- regardless if it's flu, a sports injury, a family member is gravely ill, or if it's a monthly biological reaction to the very significant things that go in with reproductive systems.

Regarding your first comment- I do concede it could be taken as offensive. I wish we had some of our old forum members- I'd LOVE to be flamed by Melissa (or any other female)- the comment- even though it was a joke- deserved a harsh comeback! Heck- let's politick Monchavo to delete the comment and increase forum traffic! (You reading Mr Monchmoderatvo?)

Indeed Aviation used to be strongly male-dominated (Comment 3)...and happily, there has been much progress in females in the cockpit as well as males with the drink cart. And by golly if a hiring manager tells a female that they can't be an airline pilot because they are female...bring on the wrath of employment lawyers.

I do know that PMS can affect women- I've seen it more than a handful of times- including someone laying on a floor unable to move, and then being told by others, "yeah, it can be that bad". I also know first hand about migraine headaches...gender neutral, but you don't belong behind a yoke. I suppose we could have new, more specific Federal Aviation Regulations that prohibit flying when body aches and headaches and mental distractions compromise your ability to fly...then again, someone recently pointed out that perhaps existing regs are good enough.

Conversely- I'd also be willing to bet that quite a few flights (many more than a handful) take place with significant borderline headaches and body aches caused by flu, exercise, PMS and a host of other reasons affecting both men and women.

Yeah, sure, it's not really a big problem- then again current duty regulations allow for significant rest periods too.

[flyboy2548m]

For what its worth, the female in question is in her fifties, so likely menopausal...which opens its own can of worms.

[Rabbi O'Genius]

I have to say that I find this topic highly offensive and discriminatory.
To suggest that these issues only apply to half the aircraft population is ridiculous.
I contend that high speed, thin, composite tubes are equally prone to being poorly controlled by impaired personnel.
Real equality dictates that whatever the fuselage material, and regardless of the pilot's genitalia, all the passengers have an equal chance of a sensational crash and burn scenario.

[3WE]

Let's turn it up a notch...

I told the daughter that flying planes was cool. We went on airplane rides and I sat her in front of MSFS.

She had a good time with it- but mostly enjoyed staying on the ground and crashing into buildings (no reflection on her ability to handle the thing the crashes were deliberate and her accuracy was just fine).

And when she had girl friends over...MSFS generally sat idle.

However, in instances when boys were present...it was very common to hear, "Hey dad, show Johnny how to work your flight simulator!"

I also remember an article by an obscure aviation writer named Gordon Baxter...His daughters loved his plane- it was a wonderful way to get from point A and B and they slept in the back. But, when a male friend was along- it was right seat, 100% attention to stuff, questions and probably some time with the yoke in hand.

Another fun thing is to look at youtubes/GoPros of folks shooting landings. In one instance an attractive gal shot some landings- and the comments are priceless. "Wow, you really know how to fly, you're great, I love flying too, whats your phone number." Then read the comments of guys shooting landing..."ok job but your turn to final was too late and you overshot the final approach course by 20 feet and had to turn back" are the nicer posts, and "you suck" are the worser. I have yet to read of someone asking the guys phone number"

I grew up in the 1970's...Women's lib, New awareness of racial and sexual discrimination, Archie Bunker and George Jefferson and Gloria and Maude and Mary Tyler Moore...we're all same...the hippies were right- except for dressing weird and not working and doing too many drugs.

However, all of this has shown me that we are wired differently, and stereotypes have some truth behind them.

Again- if a female wants to fly a plane and can pass the tests- by golly she should be able to. And if a 140 pound Norwegian wants to play US Professional Football...they will probably be discriminated against because of their weight and strength and not get the job.

[Dummy Pilot]

Boobies

[Not_Karl]

Boobies

Indeed!

[reubee]

I told the daughter that flying planes was cool. We went on airplane rides and I sat her in front of MSFS.

She had a good time with it- but mostly enjoyed staying on the ground and crashing into buildings (no reflection on her ability to handle the thing the crashes were deliberate and her accuracy was just fine).

... for my daughters on MSFS , it had to be the yellow liveried plane

[Verbal]

..or, go online to sqadron shop and see what they have in vac formed stuff, they really cover some oddball aircraft canopies.


By the way, the best program for marketing, SEO and SMM for me - it a XRumer 12.0.9 Elite

You're being very coy about responding to my marriage proposal, Marina. I like that in a girl.

[ocelot]

3WE:

PMS may be biology, but the way people react to it (or more accurately, react to other people who may or may not be suffering from it) is politics. Meanwhile, as for who is or isn't affected, you clearly didn't read what I wrote closely enough to understand what I meant.

Obviously significant PMS symptoms are a potential piloting issue, just as significant anything else symptoms are.

However, that's not the same as "CRM issues", which is a matter of competence. Your flippant substitution of one for the other is just one of many ways in which banter in a male-dominated environment can unintentionally serve to reinforce the male dominance. (To spell it out: it equates "female" with "incompetent".) I know you meant it as humor, and I doubt you meant anything bad by it; but for these reasons it's still inappropriate.

also, I apologize for dropping the original fairly aggressive posts and then disappearing for two months. The airport of "doing stuff" was closed by weather known as "relatives with medical issues". (sigh)

BTW, there are lots of reasons kids conform to normative gender roles, one being the way that toy stores are ridiculously gender-segregated now, which they weren't at least right up through the 80s. If you have kids I'm sure you're aware of this...

[flyboy2548m]

3WE:

PMS may be biology, but the way people react to it (or more accurately, react to other people who may or may not be suffering from it) is politics. Meanwhile, as for who is or isn't affected, you clearly didn't read what I wrote closely enough to understand what I meant.

Obviously significant PMS symptoms are a potential piloting issue, just as significant anything else symptoms are.

However, that's not the same as "CRM issues", which is a matter of competence. Your flippant substitution of one for the other is just one of many ways in which banter in a male-dominated environment can unintentionally serve to reinforce the male dominance. (To spell it out: it equates "female" with "incompetent".) I know you meant it as humor, and I doubt you meant anything bad by it; but for these reasons it's still inappropriate.

also, I apologize for dropping the original fairly aggressive posts and then disappearing for two months. The airport of "doing stuff" was closed by weather known as "relatives with medical issues". (sigh)

BTW, there are lots of reasons kids conform to normative gender roles, one being the way that toy stores are ridiculously gender-segregated now, which they weren't at least right up through the 80s. If you have kids I'm sure you're aware of this...

What's your actual point, ocelot? That we should revere and deify anything that is both equipped with a vagina and a pilot certificate? That anything thus equipped is beyond reproach just by virtue of being thus equipped? 'Cause God Forbid we might "reinforce the male dominance"?

[3WE]

...anything thus equipped is beyond reproach just by virtue of being thus equipped?...

Ok Ocelot, I appreciate your replies and welcome your return. I do perceive what Flyboy's getting at here..."Thou shalt not mention something gender related because there was a time where women were rare in the cockpit*"

Also- you are reading way too much into the CRM-PMS thing. In my mind a late flare isn't a matter of competence or how the captain manages things, but instead, a brief inattention. At age 55, I can see how that sort of thing happens. So, you got a headache, you're an beer-lubricated Ag Pilot, you're 55WE driving in Iowa, or your uterus is sending unusual nerve impulses and hormones...the sorts of things that might cause an brief attention lapse on a perfectly competent pilot and bam...your Cessna's got a nose-wheel shimmy or someone's I-Phone just captured quite a landing in nasty orange 737.

It's been said that women have better fine motor skills. I'll tell you that I'm a lousy welder, and that in World War II, US women seemed to do just fine at that "traditional male role". I'd also suppose that finer motor skills might be good for hand flying an ILS (I suck at that too).

*Oh, hell, I suppose that term needs to go too.

[ocelot]

Flyboy, my point is that I was trying to give 3WE the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming he was intending to insult. You insult everyone on purpose; that's fine if it works for you.

(I then made the mistake of trying to explain. You can now tell me I should have known better.)

All anyone reasonable wants is not to be treated differently just for being a woman.

[flyboy2548m]

All anyone reasonable wants is not to be treated differently just for being a woman, as long as it's convenient

Fixed.