MSFS is back

[elaw]

Hey... does anyone here know anything about VR headsets? I know earlier versions of MSFS don't support them and 2020 isn't supposed to at release time, but rumor has it that support is coming soon.

One of the things that of course makes FS less "real" than flying an actual airplane is that you have a limited view of the world... you can't just turn your head to the left and see what's to your left in the sim. Unless you surround yourself with monitors which I'm not really in a position to do. The view-panning controls help somewhat but in my experience they can be hard to use and don't work that well. So I'm actually giving thought to getting a VR headset.

Reading reviews and discussions online, it seems like for most people (who are general gamers and usually not interested in FS much if at all), what makes a VR headset "good" is the ability for it to know its position in the room, so you can play standing up and move about the room and the view moves with you.

In FS I can see that capability being useful if you want to leave the cockpit, for example to go discuss flap settings with a concerned passenger. But I'm pretty sure FS doesn't support arguing with pax (yet) and anyhow I'm not really interested in doing that. I'm quite content to sit in my chair and fly the plane, just like most other folks in a 172 would.

So the question (finally) is, could a cheaper VR headset that doesn't have fancy position-sensing capability work well in this scenario?

[Gabriel]

Hey... does anyone here know anything about VR headsets? I know earlier versions of MSFS don't support them and 2020 isn't supposed to at release time, but rumor has it that support is coming soon.

The official answer is "I don't know", but...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nI8-PEbVS0

I've heard many times people recommending NOT VR but head/face/eye tracking instead.
With this system, the movement of your head in 6 DOF gets amplified so you can turn around and pan around a bit and the viewpoint and view orientation would change a lot, so for example if you turn your head 20 degrees left that would represent say 180 degrees, so you can "look back" by turning your head just a bit but still looking at the monitor.
The clear advantage of this system is that you still can see your hands, the mouse, the keyboard etc.
If you are using flight sim for flight sim, not for gaminng, you need to open checklists and procedures, look up approach charts, program the FMS, give inputs to the autopilot, tune frequencies ets and not all of that can be done HOTAS. While there are workarounds, that may be a pain if you are "enclosed" in a VR headset. Many of the youtube videos where you people "looking around" in any flight simulator (and also moving up to see the runway over the instrument panel, or moving closer to the FMS keyboard and scree, etc...) are done with head tracking. I never tried but that will definitively be my path when I buy MSFS (and a worthy computer).
Plus, many head tracking systems with very good reviews are quite inexpensive, ESPECIALLY if you compare it with a VR system.

[elaw]

Whoa... I had no idea those existed!

And yes they look like a 10x better choice... I'll look into them (pun intended). Thanks!

[Not_Karl]

Well... maybe a little faster than this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLWEXRAnQd0

You will get SPF, not FPS.

Microsoft should include narration by Bob Ross for people with crappy computeries

...an RTX 2080 S which I assume is the same as a "2080 super"...

yes

[ocelot]

I remember flying the C64 FSII from Chicago to New York. There was no scenery whatsoever between the scenery areas, just solid green, and of course no navaids, so you estimated a heading and stuck to it and hoped. Also you could only actually do it because going into the position editor and back out again would give you a full talk of fuel.

[Gabriel]

I remember flying the C64 FSII from Chicago to New York. There was no scenery whatsoever between the scenery areas, just solid green, and of course no navaids, so you estimated a heading and stuck to it and hoped. Also you could only actually do it because going into the position editor and back out again would give you a full talk of fuel.

Oh, yes, the proverbial in-flight refueling. I had forgotten about it.
And remember the slew mode?

[Not_Karl]

We need this for MSFS 2020. Imagine turning it into a game with a purpose!

[Gabriel]

MSFS 2020. Imagine turning it into a game with a purpose!

Game? GAME?????

AND WITH A PURPOSE!?!?!

[ocelot]

And remember the slew mode?

Indeed. You went nowhere and nowhere and then suddenly you overshot everything...

[elaw]

This is pretty cool, a vid showing all the versions of MSFS from 1.0 to 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZLC5ekNJUY

[Gabriel]

This is pretty cool, a vid showing all the versions of MSFS from 1.0 to 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZLC5ekNJUY

Wow.

[elaw]

I found it interesting for several reasons:
1. Showcasing how dramatically the tech (both hardware and software) has improved over the years. Almost 40 years... geez I'm old!

2. Microsoft acknowledging that the past exists... something that's rare.

3. Seeing significant improvements in each generation of a MS program. I think about that as I sit here using a version of Office that has bugs that were there 10 years ago, a bunch of new ones, a worse UI, and costs more. But I'm not cynical... really!

[elaw]

And FS2020 has just become amusing in another way: https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games ... c/filtered

It's not even released yet and is still the best-reviewed game of 2020!

[elaw]

And... it's downloading now!

Capture.PNG (751.82 KiB) Viewed 10223 times

A few observations/tricks:
Apparently it needs to play music the entire time it's downloading the 95 GB game. Had to go into volume mixer and mute the app to stop that.

Also, while downloading and really not doing much graphically except updating a progress bar, it uses 15-20% CPU and about 20% GPU. But if you minimize it (again, this is during download), CPU usage doubles and GPU goes to almost 100%! So don't do that.

Also at least if you buy from the MS store like I did, it seems you have to have an Xbox live login not just to purchase, but to run the game - you have to log in or it won't start. I have zero interest in multiplayer FS and really would prefer not to have to be connected to a personal-information-sucking "mother ship" to run a simulator on my PC, but it appears that's the price of admission.

[elaw]

Okay so... on my 80 megabit internet connection and decent computer (specs earlier in this thread I think?), it took just about 3 hours to download and install.

And here's my preliminary review of the program: WOW! I still don't have a high-end graphics card but on my GTX 1050 ti it's still hella impressive.

I tried flying the 172 locally, recognized a ton of things in the scenery, and the plane appears to fly well and looks amazing. One of my pet peeves in previous versions of FS, slow throttle response, is still there. It's been a long time since I've flown a real 172 but my guess is if you're sitting on the ground and shove the throttle knob fully forward fairly fast, the RPMs would reach 90% of max in about a second. In FS2020 it takes about 5 seconds. But that's a nitpick, in general the thing is just amazing.

One warning though: do not expect to fire this thing up and have all the controls/keyboard commands be the same as FSX. Some things are the same, most are not, and the choices to me seem a little weird. For example F1 still idles the engine, F2 decreases throttle and F3 increases it. But F4 does not command full throttle and in very limited poking around I haven't found a key that does. Likewise with trim - home/end on the numeric pad don't adjust it and seemingly none of the joystick buttons do either. And "P" no longer pauses the game so you can figure that stuff out.

[elaw]

Okay you guys are going to have to bear with me while I gush about this thing a little. Executive summary: it's effin' amazing!

Before I tried it out I have to admit I was very concerned about what the experience was going to be like with regard to visuals and frame rate. The logic being that if my video card struggled with a 14-year-old version of FS, how could it possibly be any good with something current? It turns out my concern was seriously misplaced! This sim works just fine on this card you that can still buy for about 160 bucks, and in all respects is better than FSX. The visuals are 10 times better (I'm tempted to say 100). Weather in FSX would bring this card to its knees... not only does 2020 weather look 10x better, it doesn't impact the frame rate nearly as much. Maybe it's newer DirectX or maybe the devs of FSX just weren't all that great in the area, but this program gives you way more "bang for your buck" graphically speaking. I should add that all this is with FS2020 running at 1440p whereas most of my experience with FSX was at 1080.

Speaking of weather, it's *way* more realistic than FSX not only in how it looks but how it affects the plane. It's hard to put into words but it just seems way more realistic... the way the plane was moved around by wind currents in FSX always seemed kind of random, and even flying in the worst of clouds it was never all that challenging. In 2020 the effects on the plane seem much more like what would happen in the real world, and dense clouds / storms not only block your view much more effectively, they toss the plane around (presumably) as they would in real life.

The way the views/cameras work is much better too. I have a second joystick I built for view control, and using that and the POV hat on my main joystick, looking around the cabin and out the windows works way better and is much easier to control.

Sound is another area in which this version is a lot better than FSX. FSX sound to me always seemed buggy... the volume would change at times when it should not have, or it would do things like continue making the flap-motor sound once the flaps had stopped moving. I haven't experienced anything like that in 2020, and like everything else, the sound in 2020 just seems much more realistic in general.

It's also totally fixed one pet peeve of mine... in FSX you could get scenery based on satellite imagery but it always had one silly flaw: the imagery included vehicles on roads, which of course were very 2-dimensional and looked really stupid with AI traffic driving over them. There's none of that in 2020.

Anyhow I could go on and on but trust me, if you like flight sims you're gonna love this.

[Not_Karl]

I may or may Not_be a little jealous and envious .

[Gabriel]

While downloading and really not doing much graphically except updating a progress bar, it uses 15-20% CPU and about 20% GPU. But if you minimize it (again, this is during download), CPU usage doubles and GPU goes to almost 100%! So don't do that.

I wonder what is it doing now?

[Gabriel]

I may be either super or ultra jealous and envious .

Fixed

[Gabriel]

Okay you guys are going to have to bear with me while I gush about this thing a little. Executive summary: it's effin' amazing!

[...]

Anyhow I could go on and on but trust me, if you like flight sims you're gonna love this.

I'm gonna love this.

Can't wait for your YouTube video

[elaw]

While downloading and really not doing much graphically except updating a progress bar, it uses 15-20% CPU and about 20% GPU. But if you minimize it (again, this is during download), CPU usage doubles and GPU goes to almost 100%! So don't do that.

I wonder what is it doing now?

Yeah I thought about pulling the circuit breaker for the computer but thought better of it.

One small negative with this thing is everything takes forever, not just the install. This machine is no slouch with an NVMe SSD, fairly modern 8-core CPU and a bunch of RAM. But from double-clicking on the icon to even a window showing up takes maybe 15 seconds. Then it's various splash screens for almost a minute before the main menu comes up. Make your selections, click "go", and you're in for another 30-second wait until it's ready to fly. Even exiting flying to the main menu just now took maybe 15 seconds.

Oh and I may be the first FS2020 user ever to be unable to locate my own house! The street I live on has a lot of trees along it, and 2020 seems to like to go a little overboard with vegetation, so I could not even see the street to follow it, never mind locate my house.

But it's worth it.

[elaw]

Okay, now a little of "the other side of the coin"...

The biggest annoyance I've found so far is how long it takes to do things in 2020. I actually timed it and the delays I talked above are grossly underestimated. I just timed from double-clicking the program icon to actually being able to fly the airplane and it's almost 6-1/2 minutes! And that was loading a saved flight... I'd estimate starting a new one takes at least a minute longer.

Likewise, I miss the options to "quickly" (acknowledging in FSX this could take some tens of seconds) change things like location, day/time/season, or aircraft while in-flight. You can't do any of that in 2020, all you can do is quit to the main menu and start over, a process that takes many minutes. I suppose maybe that's the price to pay for the good in-game performance: they load a ton of stuff up beforehand and once it's loaded, that's it.

Also while in general the scenery is fantastic, it definitely does have hiccups. Here's a local bridge I used to enjoy flying under in FSX:

TobinGoogle.PNG (869.23 KiB) Viewed 10195 times

In FSX it doesn't look exactly like that Google image, but it's darn close.

But in 2020, things are a tad different:

TobinFS2020.PNG (1.18 MiB) Viewed 10195 times

It's as solid underneath as it looks: I tried flying under it and the aircraft did died (presumably I did too). Plus of course there's that FS2020 "trees growing out of everything" thing going on.

[Gabriel]

I have been watching some initial videos. The trees thing really seems to be an issue. All the planet looks like a tropical rain-forest. It looks like "tree" is the default thing. Something green? Trees. Something grey? Trees. What is that? I don;t know, put trees. Even the green grass space between runways and taxiways in some commercial airports is sometime filled with trees. It seems that turf, pastures and prairies are not things. It's all trees.

Some people is even calling it the new 2020 Microsoft Tree Simulator.

[elaw]

Can't wait for your YouTube video

Ask and ye shall receive! https://youtu.be/Ad9DX6LBSJU

[elaw]

BTW on the video, I'm not quite sure what's up with the "soft focus" effect on the instruments. It might be how I did the video capture or maybe it's a youtube thing, but in real (virtual) life they look more "crisp".