Family argument…

[3WE]

3BS continues to only TALK about stuff, but is considering getting a computer and using the flat screen to play FS…and, also stream TV programming.

3BS believes that tower computers offer A LOT MORE capability for the same (or less $$$)

Young Ms. 3BS INSISTS that I am stupid, that NO ONE does that, and that laptops are just as capable.

My subsequent research is indicating that I am right about capability- I’m seeing nearly 2X speeds, memory, and hard drives for the same $…. Leaving me with only one question: if, for some reason, desktop/towers are poorly designed for video streaming.

…and IF I should get a power console thingie, and VR goggles.

/ass-hat parlour talk.

[Gabriel]

Young Ms. 3BS INSISTS that I am stupid, that NO ONE does that

Tell Young Ms. 3BS that over 100K desktops are sold every week, just in the USA, and just by one brand.
And while notebooks surpass desktops in the "normal random user" sector, gaming is dominated by desktops, by large. Try to put one of these huge heat sinks with liquid cooling in a notebook.

[3WE]

Young Ms. 3BS INSISTS that I am stupid, that NO ONE does that

Tell Young Ms. 3BS that over 100K desktops are sold every week, just in the USA, and just by one brand.
And while notebooks surpass desktops in the "normal random user" sector, gaming is dominated by desktops, by large. Try to put one of these huge heat sinks with liquid cooling in a notebook.

I love my “laptop”… portable and amazing capability…I won’t leave home without it…

But flight sim (and who knows what else) will use whatever it can get it’s hands on…

Hell, stupid MS software wants crazy resources to put numbers in rows and columns…

[Not_Karl]

Shortish, Flyboyie friendly answer:
My asshat personal opinion is: if you doN't_need (or have a really strong desire of) to take the computer with you on the go, use it in the bed/garden/fenceperv with it/etc. or something like that, go for a desktop. Especially if you already have a laptop.
Notebooks are for when you need or want portability, Not_when you are only/primarily interested in raw power and/or price-performance.

Long, confusing, convoluted, Flyboyie upsetting answer:

3BS believes that tower computers offer A LOT MORE capability for the same (or less $$$)

Leaving that aside, a desktop computer offers you repairability*, customizability and, depending on the platform and what you initially buy, upgradability that laptop computers don't have. Gabie made an excellent point on cooling.
Also, I find using a desktop computer on a desk to be very uncomfortable (but that may be related to my Gabrielian stature), unless you put in on a stand. But then you'll need to hook it to a keyboard, you'll obviously want a mouse and probably a bigger screen... at which point you'll be using a very expensive and, comparatively speaking, undeperforming desktop computer...
(*Not_if you buy a crappy overpriced Dell with proprietary motherboard, power supply and case)
That said, young Missie Threewee has a point that new laptops (and Not_speaking of the crazy, heavy, bulky, expensive, two-minute-autonomy "desktop replacement" ones that use desktop grade components) are surprisingly powerful and can, in some cases and under some circumstances, rival desktop computers and the price gap (recent chip shortage and currently collapsing cripto-mining craze aside, when sometimes gaming notebooks were less obscenely overpriced and less difficult to get than their desktop counterparts) is not as big as years ago. It's quite amazing how efficient mobile CPUs and GPUs are getting, and how far from linear are power draw and performance... But even then, there obviously is a performance gap when desktop GPUs can pull at least twice the power than mobile ones, and several times in the case of adequately cooled desktop CPUs...

Young Ms. 3BS, BBie, Flyboyie, Evanie and Brianie INSIST that I am stupid

Fixed?

(By the way, I'm typing this on a "convertible" tablet computer with laptop-style keyboard and hating every second of the experience... But as least is far better than using the touchscreen!)

[3WE]

I am stupid

This IS a given.

However:

Relentless pull ups tend to result in stalls.

"Desktop" computers tend to have more capability for equal or less money.

A 1/3-2/3 composure and "imperfect" lighting and focus can make for enjoyable jetphotos.

Coronavirus behaves much like other pathogens.

Old Boeings were awesome aeroplanies.

Synthetic GMO fertilizerpesticides smell better than cow manure.

You're welcome.

[elaw]

(Lots of stuff)

What Gabe said.

Laptop manufacturers do a good job of making them look good on paper... CPU, RAM, MHz specs look about the same as a desktop. But a good desktop can compute rings around garden-variety laptops, and even gaming laptops (Dell XPS series for example) are okay, but not as powerful as a gaming desktop.

Never mind that if you get serious about FS, you may end up with enough peripherals (multiple monitors, throttle quadrant, yoke/joystick, rudder pedals...) that the rest of your setup will be pretty much "fixed" anyway so at that point, the portability of the computer is pretty much moot.

[elaw]

Dude... liquid cooling with a radiator is so 2020! Nowadays if you're going to run with the big dogs, you need LN2.

OTOH I'll deny saying it if anyone asks, but my (primary/gaming) PC is cooled with lowly air.

[Gabriel]

Dude... liquid cooling with a radiator is so 2020! Nowadays if you're going to run with the big dogs, you need LN2.

Boring. Try submerged computers instead.

[elaw]

Funny you should mention that... the company I work for has done work related to that (sort of): http://www.divtecs.com/_files/ugd/1e691 ... a5654d.pdf

I mean it's not PCs, but computers and other electronic wizardry.

[Not_Karl]

I am stupid

This IS a given.

Disconcur.

Synthetic GMO fertilizerpesticides smell better than cow manure.

I doN't_have the slightest idea, but for forumie-argument sake I will disregard your knowledge, credentials and experience and say that fresh, steamy manure smells far better than your cheap-synthetic-government-approved-people-killing chemicals.

OTOH I'll deny saying it if anyone asks, but my (primary/gaming) PC is cooled with lowly air.

Air cooling is far more reliable, requires much less (and simpler) maintenance and caN't_leak and cause a TOTAL COMPUTER DISASTER!!!

That said, I have some morbid interest in watercooled power supplies. What could possibly go wrong?

[ocelot]

Another point is that if you're intending a flight simulator setup, you'll want a big screen (or maybe more than one) and at least a stick and pedals if not more control doodads. This pretty much means a desk, and at that point there's little to be gained by putting a laptop on it rather than a desktop.

[3WE]

Quote=Ocelot:

1. you'll want a big screen (or maybe more than one)

2. and at least a stick and pedals if not

3. more control doodads

1. Yeah, I was thinking I could have readable insruments AND a forward view with the big TV. FS10 whatever and an old monitor was limited for both. CONVERSELY, I’ve realized some peripheral input is “much more real”… multiple monitors seem a bit much… but wondering if VR goggles might be more affordable AND better AND MUCH BETTER FOR THE LIVING ROOM CLUTTER..

This makes the TV needless, but we (old people) are beginning to watch TV from the inter webs…so, one computer, triple use (3rd use = normal home business, and making posts, here, and trolling Evan and photo screeners, there.)

2. Flight sim became cool the day I bought pedals and turned off auto coordination. Of course, Mrs. 3WE keeps removing my yoke and pedals… . Such behavior should be banned.

3. Do you have a throttle doodad? I really do not need to be THAT much of a FS geek, but another part of me would like to have half a handful of tiny plastic power levers to easily do things DIFFERENTIALLY.

[Gabriel]

wondering if VR goggles might be more affordable AND better AND MUCH BETTER FOR THE LIVING ROOM CLUTTER..

If going that route, you better have a good HOTAS joystick / throttle with a lot of buttons that you can identify and press without looking assigned to every function you may need. Forget about finding the P for pause on the keyboard while wearing the VR goggles.

A good alternative can be head tracking system that amplifies your head movement (so you can look 90 degrees right by turning your head just a little right while you keep watching your monitor)

[Gabriel]

https://flightsimassociation.com/guides ... al-reality

[elaw]

wondering if VR goggles might be more affordable AND better AND MUCH BETTER FOR THE LIVING ROOM CLUTTER..

If going that route, you better have a good HOTAS joystick / throttle with a lot of buttons that you can identify and press without looking assigned to every function you may need. Forget about finding the P for pause on the keyboard while wearing the VR goggles.

A good alternative can be head tracking system that amplifies your head movement (so you can look 90 degrees right by turning your head just a little right while you keep watching your monitor)

I've actually been giving some thought to this, but so far have resisted.

Pros in my opinion: much more immersive experience, being able to look around your surroundings in a "real" way - and yes I know those are mostly the same.

Cons (again IMO of course): expense, as VR goggles for me would not be used for anything else (unlike monitors). The fact that if you don't pay for overnight shipping, they might be outdated/unsupported/require a login somewhere/require a subscription before you receive them. Of course the login/sub thing could apply no matter when you get them. And... what Gabe said - inability to interact with the real world. In addition to using mouse & keyboard to operate the airplane, I'll also do things like pull up airnav.com to get info on airports. Plus I "pop out" to my 2nd monitor things like the map and radio dialog - not sure how that would work with goggles.

But I still might try them at some point, just 'cause I wanna be one of the cool kids.

[elaw]

Personally for the ultimate in reality, I'm waiting for an add-on device that will simulate... uh... "emesis" from back-seat passengers when you perform certain maneuvers with the aircraft.

I mean, anyone who follows Monty Python knows the tech exists:

Nice little novelty number - 'a naughty Humphrey' - breaks the ice at parties. Put it on the table. Press the button. It vomits. Absolutely guaranteed. With refills.

[ocelot]

I do Not_have a separate throttle doodad (just a flightstick with a single throttle slider) but this is kind of an inadequate state of affairs. But at the moment I don't have a simulator either; I don't have the right equipment for MSFS and concluded that Flightgear is really not adequate. (And the friend who dragged me into Popular Combat Simulator got tired of it, so I stopped.) Things have kinda stuck there.

Before things got stuck, though, I was trying to figure out what and how many widgets to buy. The manufacturers mostly seem to assume that by default what you want on your desk is a 152, but that is definitely not the case for me. But how many levers is a good number? I think somewhere here a while ago we had a DC-7 cockpit video and it's got ... a lot. Certainly I want enough engine controls for a complex twin (throttles, prop pitch, cowl flaps, etc...) but this already seems to be beyond what is readily available without figuring out custom mountings so you can stick a bunch of controllers together without it turning into a huge mess. Or maybe I haven't looked in the right places.

Then I'm not sure how much money I want to spend on any of it since it's not clear how much I'll actually manage to use it.

So I don't have any recommendations.

On the subject of VR helmets, though it's doubtless a lot cheaper than setting up 3 or 5 monitors, I would not, partly because of the button-pushing issue already mentioned (you can reasonably set up a HOTAS arrangement that has everything in reach that you need during combat in a combat simulator, but every button or switch in a cockpit? not likely) but also because it is not necessarily good for your head. During the previous wave of virtual reality hype in the 90s, some people who overused the things discovered that while you can adjust to the VR environment behaving differently from reality, the improper responses you pick up there can leak back into reality as well and that can apparently create real and significant problems. (This is stuff like depth perception being off, response lag, eye input not matching vestibular input, etc., quite apart from training in wrong responses because the simulator itself is bad.)

[Gabriel]

Before things got stuck, though, I was trying to figure out what and how many widgets to buy. The manufacturers mostly seem to assume that by default what you want on your desk is a 152, but that is definitely not the case for me. But how many levers is a good number? I think somewhere here a while ago we had a DC-7 cockpit video and it's got ... a lot. Certainly I want enough engine controls for a complex twin (throttles, prop pitch, cowl flaps, etc...) but this already seems to be beyond what is readily available without figuring out custom mountings so you can stick a bunch of controllers together without it turning into a huge mess. Or maybe I haven't looked in the right places.

You want this:
https://www.sportys.com/honeycomb-bravo ... lsrc=aw.ds

[elaw]

I think somewhere here a while ago we had a DC-7 cockpit video and it's got ... a lot.

Oy... if you want to properly simulate a DC-7, you're going to need more desks! There's a reason (okay maybe several) that aeroplanie wasn't certified for single-pilot operation. Which plane was it... the connie?... that actually had an oscilloscope in the engineer's console so you could monitor the spark on every plug on every engine.

you can adjust to the VR environment behaving differently from reality, the improper responses you pick up there can leak back into reality as well and that can apparently create real and significant problems.

Wait a second... could that be how Trump got elected?

[ocelot]

You want this:
https://www.sportys.com/honeycomb-bravo ... lsrc=aw.ds

Neat! Yeah, hadn't looked in the right places I guess.

[ocelot]

As for a DC-7, that's kind of silly, yes, but what's the dividing point? Complex twin, certainly. Four-engine jet, probably. Valkyrie, with six? B-29? Seems like a reasonable goal maybe, but probably not a lot less stuff than a DC-7 either, if any. B-52? B-36?

I suppose probably the answer is that if anyone makes a B-36 panel at all it is probably mostly speech synthesis and recognition to provide the experience of having a cockpit full of flight engineers.

and you don't actually need six throttles for a Valkyrie or eight for a B-52 either, one each side is probably enough.

[3WE]

Back on the subject of VR goggles...do they work INTUITIVELY with a computer mouse?

I'm specifically thinking of the problem of how you work gear and flaps and radios...

I can imagine having decent muscle memory to grab throttles and a mouse, and then (just like you do on the screen) guide the mouse to the right spot and start clicking.

Regarding DC-7 setups, I think there's a small part of us that would at least ONCE like to pretend fly one...even though owning such a "throttle quadrant" is rather un practical for a home FS setup...and yeah, having all the knobs work from just one, is adequate...But now we're getting into sound setups..

[elaw]

I almost have a DC-7 for MSFS: https://pmdg.com/pmdg-dc-6-for-msfs/

Haven't been able to spend much time with it as of yet but it seems amazing. And re throttles, I have just one (for all engines/all airplanes). It's not the perfect setup, but fits my limited desk space and does the job.

[ocelot]

Back on the subject of VR goggles...do they work INTUITIVELY with a computer mouse?

I'm specifically thinking of the problem of how you work gear and flaps and radios...

I can imagine having decent muscle memory to grab throttles and a mouse, and then (just like you do on the screen) guide the mouse to the right spot and start clicking.

I have no idea, but I think we were assuming not (hence the HOTAS talk before).

In theory with this stuff what you "want" is a VR glove that tracks your hand position so you can throw virtual switches in the virtual cockpit, but I have no idea what those cost or if they're even available in consumer grade...

[3WE]

I almost have a DC-7 for MSFS: https://pmdg.com/pmdg-dc-6-for-msfs/

I almost hate you.

Will you be reenacting one of these movies?

https://youtu.be/8-v2BHNBVCs