United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

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United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby Not_Karl » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:38 am

A United Boeing 777-200, registration N772UA performing flight UA-328 from Denver,CO to Honolulu,HI (USA) with 231 passengers and 10 crew, was in the initial climb out of Denver's runway 25 when the right hand engine's (PW4077) inlet separated associated with the failure of the engine. (...) The aircraft stopped the climb at about 13000 feet (...) The aircraft returned to Denver for a safe landing on runway 26 about 23 minutes after departure.
AvieHeraldie linky with weight-reduced, nicely afterburning turbiniephotos and videos.
Relevant AvieHeraldie post to which I fully AGREE:
By (anonymous) on Sunday, Feb 21st 2021 03:18Z

COME ON DESIGNERS! if you don't have the right strong materials to construct engines with more efficiency and less weight, tell your managers at the beginning,..... now it is to late.
BAN ALL TURBINIES!
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby 3WE » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:28 pm

BAN ALL TURBINIES!
1. I was thinking that if they needed to evacuate the plane, there might be something to be said for outwardly-opening doors.

2. STATISTICS say that turbines are safe. Common sense says that metal blades spinning really fast will, on occasion, tear some stuff up...and helicopters should be banned too.

3. Double post from there: The dude who got the ring needs to put it to good use, or sell it on EBay. Bobieee effectively trolled Evanie to hear how we need to fix aviation.
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby Princess Leia » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:16 pm

I am sad to report that no collectables rained down on this part of Colorado.
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby elaw » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:38 pm

By (anonymous) on Sunday, Feb 21st 2021 03:18Z

COME ON DESIGNERS! if you don't have the right strong materials to construct engines with more efficiency and less weight, tell your managers at the beginning,..... now it is to late.
I seem to remember a case in the past where the designers of the o-rings on some solid rocket boosters had a concern about said o-rings' performance in low temperatures, and we know how that worked out... :cry: :evil:
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby Gabriel » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:00 pm

By (anonymous) on Sunday, Feb 21st 2021 03:18Z

COME ON DESIGNERS! if you don't have the right strong materials to construct engines with more efficiency and less weight, tell your managers at the beginning,..... now it is to late.
I seem to remember a case in the past where the designers of the o-rings on some solid rocket boosters had a concern about said o-rings' performance in low temperatures, and we know how that worked out... :cry: :evil:
And they did tell their managers.

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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby 3WE » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:07 pm

I am sad to report that no collectables rained down on this part of Colorado.
Leia: Thanks for checking in. Did you know that KS fell out of the top 25...So did Missouri, but hey, we still hate you :lol:
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby Sickbag » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:09 pm

Any RABBITS called FRANK involved?
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby monchavo » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:17 am

BAN ALL TURBINIES!

3. Double post from there: The dude who got the ring needs to put it to good use, or sell it on EBay. Bobieee effectively trolled Evanie to hear how we need to fix aviation.
I did see some rather droll commentary about it belonging in a man-cave. I find it interesting that Boeing has suggested the grounding of all of the 777 fleet with P&Ws this morning (!)
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby elaw » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:03 pm

I did see some rather droll commentary about it belonging in a man-cave.
My first question when I saw the large cowling ring in someone's front yard was whether they'd already received a letter from their HOA demanding it be removed.
I find it interesting that Boeing has suggested the grounding of all of the 777 fleet with P&Ws this morning (!)
Yeah, aircraft-industry folks aren't great at thinking "outside the box". What they could have done is made the main cabin windows able to open, and given all the pax long sticks and marshmallows.
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby J » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:09 pm

Comment from Canadian Jet Mechanic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQwaqDe3jio

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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby tds » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:05 pm

Probably not a coincidence (failure more likely to occur under takeoff / climb power), but from a pucker factor perspective I'd be awfully glad that didn't happen way out over the Pacific.

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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby J » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:42 am

Here is a video including some closeup images of the engine. Apparently a fan blade separated at the root, damaged an adjacent blade, shot forward and sliced the inlet ring. taking it off and the parts of the cowl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwNCCrjMmeg

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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby monchavo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:38 pm

Comment from Canadian Jet Mechanic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQwaqDe3jio
This is a great video.
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby elaw » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:45 pm

That dude has tons of good videos. So many videos... so little time... :(
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby Verbal » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:00 pm

"Contained" just means the blade did not penetrate the containment ring that surrounds the fan. The thrust loads pushed the blades forward and out of the engine. An uncontained failure is when the blade penetrates the containment ring, creating the possibility that it strikes the wing or fuselage. The intact blades suffered damage to their tips from scraping the inner cowl wall due to the engine imbalance.
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby elaw » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:21 pm

Yeah I have to say with all due respect (and I mean that seriously) to AgentJayZ, saying this is not an uncontained engine failure is like saying your totaled car was not in a collision because the bumper did not come into contact with another object.

There was in fact an engine failure, and the failed component(s) were very much not contained. I think most reasonable people (and most juries if you want to go in that direction) would call that an "uncontained engine failure".

More to the point, the goal of designing an engine to contain failed components is to prevent said components from getting loose and doing damage to people or property - the aircraft falling into the latter category. If bits of engines are liberating themselves and damaging people or things, that goal has not been met.
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby Gabriel » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:58 pm

Yeah I have to say with all due respect (and I mean that seriously) to AgentJayZ, saying this is not an uncontained engine failure is like saying your totaled car was not in a collision because the bumper did not come into contact with another object.

There was in fact an engine failure, and the failed component(s) were very much not contained. I think most reasonable people (and most juries if you want to go in that direction) would call that an "uncontained engine failure".

More to the point, the goal of designing an engine to contain failed components is to prevent said components from getting loose and doing damage to people or property - the aircraft falling into the latter category. If bits of engines are liberating themselves and damaging people or things, that goal has not been met.
That's wrong in many ways. Uncontained engine failure has a specific definition and it is high-energy shrapnel being projected radially. The danger of that is much higher (both for the people on the plane and on the ground) than blades being tossed forward or back and piece of cowling falling down like leaves (which, by the way, technically the cowling is not part of the engine but part of the plane)

And, a "contained" engine failure in the sense you would like to describe it is just technically impossible. How you stop turbine blades from being exhausted through the tailpipe of the engine? Like what happened here:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4e35302b&opt=234

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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby tds » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:14 pm

Does anyone already know what struck the wing root underneath the wing? When I saw those pictures I assumed that this was uncontained in the technical sense.

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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby monchavo » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:54 am

Does anyone already know what struck the wing root underneath the wing? When I saw those pictures I assumed that this was uncontained in the technical sense.
Could you please share a picture where you see this damage?
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby elaw » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:33 pm

I think this is what he's talking about:
Image
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby elaw » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:51 pm

(Lengthy explanation of how this was not an uncontained engine failure per section 372, subsection 85, chapter 47, paragraph 31(b)(2) of some engine manufacturer's manual)
I totally get that according to the "official" definition, this was not an uncontained engine failure.

But to me this is a "spirit of the law vs. letter of the law" thing. The whole purpose of rules forbidding uncontained engine failures is to prevent injuries/did_diedness/property damage if something breaks inside an engine. Yet this is just one of a number of incidents where failures have occurred in the fan section of turbofan engines (United 232, anyone?) and engine bits have been discharged at high velocities, causing injuries, did_diedness, and property damage. So (channeling Evanie here) it seems to me that something should be done about it.

And I equally get that when a part becomes "suboptimally attached" within an engine, that said part is likely to exit the engine at some point. But a) straight out the back of the engine is already considered a "proper" place for discharging harmful stuff, as high-velocity air and exhaust gases are already discharged there. And b) even if a part is going to be discharged elsewhere, an attempt should be made to ensure it's discharged at a low enough velocity that it's not likely to do things like rip windows out of the aircraft (Southwest 1380) or sever a bunch of hydraulic lines.

I will admit that containing failed engine bits to the point where they will not alarm pax or set off the media is probably a lost cause. :roll:
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby J » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:55 pm

My understanding is the damaged piece in the photograph is a fiberglass fairing and that it exhibits smears that are the same color as the inside of the engine narcelle. Supposedly the underlying wing root had a mark on it but was not damaged.

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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby tds » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:21 pm

Ah, thanks J - hadn't read that. So this was indeed a contained failure.

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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby monchavo » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:29 pm

Ah, thanks J - hadn't read that. So this was indeed a contained failure.
I do wonder however if there are instances of a piece of cowling hitting at just the right angle or fast enough to cause material damage to a wing (?)
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Re: United B777-200 uncontained engine failure? over Denver

Postby Gabriel » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:47 pm

(Lengthy explanation of how this was not an uncontained engine failure per section 372, subsection 85, chapter 47, paragraph 31(b)(2) of some engine manufacturer's manual)
I totally get that according to the "official" definition, this was not an uncontained engine failure.

But to me this is a "spirit of the law vs. letter of the law" thing. The whole purpose of rules forbidding uncontained engine failures is to prevent injuries/did_diedness/property damage if something breaks inside an engine.
Again, no. The spirit of the law has always been avoiding high-energy pieces flying out and severing a wing spar, cutting electric wires or hydraulic lines, or taking out the other engine. There have ALWAYS been things flying out of engines when blades fail.

Now, the issue of the "cowling coming apart when a fan blade fails" seems to be something relatively new, associated with some ultra-high bypass turbofans, that is happening with some frequency, and I agree that it needs to be addressed. But I would not put it in the same box together with uncontained failures.

Yet this is just one of a number of incidents where failures have occurred in the fan section of turbofan engines (United 232, anyone?) and engine bits have been discharged at high velocities, causing injuries, did_diedness, and property damage. So (channeling Evanie here) it seems to me that something should be done about it.
But that is something totally different. That IS uncontained failure. But it is absolutely NOT what happened in this United 777 incident.
In United 232, it was not a fan blade that was shed at high speed, but the whole fan disk fractured and was shed at high speed. This is something that the industry has not totally resolved and we are not anywhere closer to resolve it today than we were 50 years ago. It just can't be done.
For that kind of engine failures, the only remedies are prevention (designs and inspections that make that occurrence almost impossible, and that's why there are so few of these) and mitigation (separating electric lines, fluid lines, adding automatic valves to fuel lines to preserve hydraulic fluid and prevent what happened with United 232, adding redundant structure, etc) with the hope that there will be enough of airplane in working order after the event to be able to end this flight with a safe landing.
And I equally get that when a part becomes "suboptimally attached" within an engine, that said part is likely to exit the engine at some point. But a) straight out the back of the engine is already considered a "proper" place for discharging harmful stuff, as high-velocity air and exhaust gases are already discharged there. And b) even if a part is going to be discharged elsewhere, an attempt should be made to ensure it's discharged at a low enough velocity that it's not likely to do things like rip windows out of the aircraft (Southwest 1380)
I agree. The certification requirements should include provisions that make it almost impossible for the cowling to fail in the event of a contained engine failure. The cowling is actually considered part of the airplane (not part of the engine), so it will be somehow a challenge to include the cowling in the engine containment certification (the engine is tested without a cowling and even less with a cowling of one particular plane). But this needs to be resolved. Another challenge is that, in today ultra-high bypass turbofans, almost all of the thrust comes from the fan instead of being distributed between the fan and the low and high pressure compressor stages (it still is, but not as much as t was before). So you have these large but light (and hollow) blades making a lot of force forward, and then try them not to be launched forward when they are released from the hub, plus it is very possible that the incident will cause an immediate engine surge with the stalling of the compressor and fan and burst of airflow being reversed (like in those incidents where "fire" is shot through the engine inlet). I think it will be hard to ensure that no blade will exit through the front of the engine, but it should be possible to ensure that it does so in a safe-ish way (like extending the reinforced containment ring all the way to the inlet lip).
or sever a bunch of hydraulic lines.
Like United 232? Forget it. If a whole fan, compressor or turbine disk breaks, there is no stopping it. Only option is prevent and mitigate the consequence of the damage.


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